Workers saw prisoner abuse at Guantanamo

So let us say in theory, that 20 terrorists affiliated with al-queda, but not sponsored by any country, pulled off a mass gassing of New Yorks subway system that resulted in 5,000 American citizens dead or injured. 10 escaped into America, 10 were captured. By your reasoning, the captured terrorists should be treated as American citizens with full constitutional rights. Answer yes or no, and your justification if you answered yes.

Why does he have to justify himself if he says yes? I should ask you why you think foreigners are less deserving of basic human rights than Americans. You're basically saying they're less human.
 
Why does he have to justify himself if he says yes? I should ask you why you think foreigners are less deserving of basic human rights than Americans. You're basically saying they're less human.

I don't think he is saying all that based on them being foreigners. I think he is saying that becuase they took the lives of others.

If I killed your mum tonight, you'd probably look at me as less of a human. Regardless of me being American, French, or even just like you.
 
So what you are saying is that terrorists have (or should) the same constitutional rights as you and I do? And you are terribly naive to think that other "civilized" nation dont torture their detainees.

And hope someone doesnt try the "Geneva Convention" arguement, as it only applies to POW who are uniformed and represent a legitimate country as defined by the UN or NATO.

The first thing you need to understand is the method in which people were sent to Guantanamo. Some were snitched on by their neighbors for cash rewards, others were just randomly picked up. This is probably why several hundred have already been released. So don't assume that they were all terrorists and thus not covered by the Geneva conventions.

Also, the Geneva conventions does require a competent tribunal to determine the status of those that are captured if any doubt arises. Even if they aren't classified as POWs, they are still required to be treated humanely.

Don't forget, they are still human beings. Just because they don't fit into some fixed category, it doesn't mean you can do with them as you please. What, do you think you can rape or kill them also? They aren't protected by anything, right?

Furthermore, the US supreme court has ruled that they are protected by the Geneva conventions.

One more thing, the United States is also part of the "United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" or UNCAT.

This is basic human rights.
 
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So let us say in theory, that 20 terrorists affiliated with al-queda, but not sponsored by any country, pulled off a mass gassing of New Yorks subway system that resulted in 5,000 American citizens dead or injured. 10 escaped into America, 10 were captured. By your reasoning, the captured terrorists should be treated as American citizens with full constitutional rights. Answer yes or no, and your justification if you answered yes.

I believe that they should be subject to the same basic constitutional rights as an American defendant. They should be subject to a trial by jury. They should be granted legal counsel. They should be allowed the right to see the evidence against them and finally, they should be given a speedy trial and a speedier sentencing.

If the case is as clear-cut as this, what harm is there in trying terrorists under our constitutional system. They'd be on their way to the lethal injection table either way.
I also believe that just because we are trying them doesn't mean that we cannot interrogate them.
 
I don't think he is saying all that based on them being foreigners. I think he is saying that becuase they took the lives of others.

If I killed your mum tonight, you'd probably look at me as less of a human. Regardless of me being American, French, or even just like you.

There have been mass murderers and serial killers in the US before, and they were able to be tried and convicted without ignoring the rights granted to them in the Constitution. Now Jayhawk is saying that these people don't deserve these rights, and the only difference is that some of them aren't US citizens.
 
F*ck all this sh*t, just send in Jack Bauer and he'll take care of everything. He can make anyone talk.
 
It really pisses me off to think that allowing non-citizens of a country all of the resources of a citizen (from a legal standpoint) just seems to be expected in this case. Let me just go by the numbers here to I can make my points crystal clear:

1. Us citizens have a right to a fair trial and a right to have it expedited
2. Except for a TINY, TINY, TINY fraction of the people being held in Cuba, they are not US citizens
3. The US Citizens being held there are being held for damn good reasons
4. No one was just randomly scooped up and stuck there, you have to earn your spot in that club.
5. I am very glad that no one here is running that prison, you have no idea what the hell torture really is.
6. There is a HUGE difference between torture and aggressive interrogation. I would say that the overwhelming majority of the stuff being complained about here falls under interrogation, and some of it is not even that extreme!
 
4. No one was just randomly scooped up and stuck there, you have to earn your spot in that club.
That isn't true at all. There was some British Muslims who were detained for many years and the only reason was they happened to be in Pakistan visiting family or something. They claimed to have a video off them at some terrorist rally somewhere but they could all prove they were working in Comet in the UK at the time but the stupid idiots who were interrogating them couldn't be bothered checking.
 
It really pisses me off to think that allowing non-citizens of a country all of the resources of a citizen (from a legal standpoint) just seems to be expected in this case. Let me just go by the numbers here to I can make my points crystal clear:

1. Us citizens have a right to a fair trial and a right to have it expedited
2. Except for a TINY, TINY, TINY fraction of the people being held in Cuba, they are not US citizens
3. The US Citizens being held there are being held for damn good reasons
4. No one was just randomly scooped up and stuck there, you have to earn your spot in that club.
5. I am very glad that no one here is running that prison, you have no idea what the hell torture really is.
6. There is a HUGE difference between torture and aggressive interrogation. I would say that the overwhelming majority of the stuff being complained about here falls under interrogation, and some of it is not even that extreme!


For the most part I agree with what you are saying. Except #1 and #3 seem to contradict each other.
 
For the most part I agree with what you are saying. Except #1 and #3 seem to contradict each other.


Well they can be both citizens and "enemy combatants" at the same time... does that help?
 
Well they can be both citizens and "enemy combatants" at the same time... does that help?

If you are saying that taking up arms against your own country (or treason) means you lose your citizenship, perhaps. But it can't just be an arbitrary decision, it has to be determined by the courts and you have to be granted certain rights in the process.
 
Why does he have to justify himself if he says yes? I should ask you why you think foreigners are less deserving of basic human rights than Americans. You're basically saying they're less human.

In what part of my paragraph, did I say that these people are foreigners?

And I believe that terrorists are nothing more than savages. Be it al-queda or timothy mcveigh.
 
In what part of my paragraph, did I say that these people are foreigners?

And I believe that terrorists are nothing more than savages. Be it al-queda or timothy mcveigh.

1. I didn't think you had to state the obvious.

2. You do know that not everyone who gets arrested for a crime is guilty, right?
 
There have been mass murderers and serial killers in the US before, and they were able to be tried and convicted without ignoring the rights granted to them in the Constitution. Now Jayhawk is saying that these people don't deserve these rights, and the only difference is that some of them aren't US citizens.
US citizens are subject to US law, other citizens are subject to international law, and not afforded any extra rights, privleges or protections guaranteed by any other local legal system.

this is how the international legal system works. They don't have the same rights as US citizens because THEY ARE NOT US CITIZENS. They fall under a different legal category.

I don't like the idea of torture, but I'll say that I think most prisons(at least in the US) could afford to be less accomidating.
 
Somehow America?s government and military act quite similar to those "axis of evil" people they want to protect us from......torture, attacking other countries, arresting people without proofs, spying on their people.....
 
US citizens are subject to US law, other citizens are subject to international law, and not afforded any extra rights, privleges or protections guaranteed by any other local legal system.

this is how the international legal system works. They don't have the same rights as US citizens because THEY ARE NOT US CITIZENS. They fall under a different legal category.

I don't like the idea of torture, but I'll say that I think most prisons(at least in the US) could afford to be less accomidating.
Now the only problem is that the US are ignoring the international laws as well...
 
Now the only problem is that the US are ignoring the international laws as well...
Bahahahaha. Are you really that naive? Countries only follow internation law when it suits them to do so, European countries included.
 
Oh come on, this is pathetic! Your country wipes it?s ass with ANY laws or conventions that exists because they are the world?s police and god?s own country yadda yadda and this is why you aren?t that popular out there.

BTW: Please show us some examples how european countries ignore international laws in the same heaviness as TORTURE, ATTACKING FOREIGN COUNTRIES, INFLUENCING ELECTIONS IN OTHER COUNTRIES etc..
 
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BTW: Please show us some examples how european countries ignore international laws in the same heaviness as TORTURE, ATTACKING FOREIGN COUNTRIES, INFLUENCING ELECTIONS IN OTHER COUNTRIES etc..

Well, you are a German so you should know. Spain and Italy are also up there. But these things have been going on for the past 50 years. That was the Cold War for you. That is how it was played. These days things are even less civilized so to get anything done you must take the gloves off because believe it or not being all smiles and happy only gets you so far. but don't forget the fact that the US government and US citizens in general give more aid to other countries than any other people in the world.

Oh come on, this is pathetic! Your country wipes it?s ass with ANY laws or conventions that exists because they are the world?s police and god?s own country yadda yadda and this is why you aren?t that popular out there.

Remember that without the US there would be no UN or NATO. We also helped to create the League of Nations for however brief that lasted. We did protect Europe from the Soviet Union. After the WW2 Stalin was going to take over Europe. The US stepped in with billions upon billions of dollars and a huge quantity of men to protect Europe. Another consequence of the US being there was that the European countries did not have to spend as much on defense as compared to what they would have to if the US was not there.
 
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