15 yr old beats up 83 yr old woman (link)

[LeVeL]

Dude, just stop. Keep your "TEXAS! FUCK YEAH!" pride to the secession thread. Guns aren't going to help a bedridden old lady with arthritis. Guns aren't going to help anyone who doesn't want one. I'm not saying gun control is necessarily a good thing, just that this is not the thread to bring it up in.

Damn, there's no popcorn smilie. I guess I'll just have a beer then while watching the fight.

 

[maxtortheone]

Would this be a solution?(click)

 

[jonimatix]

the world is getting worse as time passes....................

 

[Spectre]

Dude, just stop. Keep your "TEXAS! FUCK YEAH!" pride to the secession thread. Guns aren't going to help a bedridden old lady with arthritis. Guns aren't going to help anyone who doesn't want one. I'm not saying gun control is necessarily a good thing, just that this is not the thread to bring it up in.

Most of those weren't actually in Texas, you know.

And how else, exactly, do you propose that a frail senior citizen defend themselves against a young thug? "Stop, or I shall yell stop again?!?!?!?!???!"

I am anxious to hear your answer.

 

[Peter3hg]

Most of those weren't actually in Texas, you know.

And how else, exactly, do you propose that a frail senior citizen defend themselves against a young thug? "Stop, or I shall yell stop again?!?!?!?!???!"

I am anxious to hear your answer.

It happens all the time with pensioners beating them off using their sticks and so on. Unless you can provide evidence that pensioners statistically can defend themselves better in a gun-ridden society, then your point is useless.

Edit: Examples

http://sport.scotsman.com/topstories/OAP-fights--off-female.5147792.jp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ord-attacker-striking-head-walking-stick.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/2946618.stm

 

[Spectre]

Yeah, MALE pensioners, usually under the age of 80.

Kindly provide evidence of *your* point, that an 83 year old woman can beat off a 15 year old thug with her stick. My now-departed grandmother wasn't able to lift a stick to shoulder height with her right arm at 83, let alone swing it with enough force to annoy anyone.... but she was still able to pull the trigger on a would-be rapist.

It is a question of physical condition, strength and infirmity.

Edit: Re: Your examples:

1. There's a LOT of difference between 66 and 83.

2. There's a LOT of difference between Male/60 and Female/83.

3. Did you not even read the article?

War veteran Maurice Williams was kicked, punched and bitten by the man who broke into his house in Tynemouth on Wednesday.

Mr Williams, who had gone to investigate a noise downstairs, defended himself with his walking stick.

But he found himself overpowered and was threatened with a knife.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Peter3hg]

Yeah, MALE pensioners, usually under the age of 80.

Kindly provide evidence of *your* point, that an 83 year old woman can beat off a 15 year old thug with her stick. My now-departed grandmother wasn't able to lift a stick to shoulder height with her right arm at 83, let alone swing it with enough force to annoy anyone.... but she was still able to pull the trigger on a would-be rapist.

It is a question of physical condition, strength and infirmity.

How about a 99 year old women?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-452504/99-year-old-nightie-fights-masked-intruder.html

 

[Spectre]

How about a 99 year old women?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-452504/99-year-old-nightie-fights-masked-intruder.html

She didn't actually fight them off, per the article. She tripped her alarm and they fled, fearing the police.

If they'd wanted to they could have easily killed her (having had her throat in their hands), then fled.

Also, if she has the strength to successfully wrestle with a male assailant of (assuming here) youth to middle age, she's a statistical anomaly (and you know it.)

 

[Peter3hg]

She didn't actually fight them off, per the article. She tripped her alarm and they fled, fearing the police.

If they'd wanted to they could have easily killed her, then fled.

Where is the difference? Using a gun to scare somebody off or using another means to scare somebody off?
A few of the other links I provided show pensioners fighting people off (admittedly not meeting your criteria) but then again most of your links failed to meet the same criteria.

 

[Spectre]

Well, considering that one of your examples not only wasn't female and wasn't over 80, but didn't "scare them off" at ALL, I'm not so sure of the validity of that...

Let's see, my links:

1: 85 year old female holds off burglar/home intruder with gun. Seems to fit.

The others, admittedly, did not have protagonists of as great an age, but that was because I was in a hurry and only searched for "grandmother" in my self-defense link archive. I'm still waiting to see a link about an 83+ year old British woman successfully fighting off a young assailant with her cane or stick.

 

[Interrobang]

As shocking as this is, I think the debate should be more about "how can we spot sociopaths like this bloke and give them help before stuff like that happens" than "how to punish him" ... because there is clearly something wrong in that boys head and no punishment would have changed that or put him off. The smart move would be to learn from this and try to make sure people like him get spottet and a) help oder b) locked away in one of these nice padded cells ...

 

[Spectre]

As shocking as this is, I think the debate should be more about "how can we spot sociopaths like this bloke and give them help before stuff like that happens" than "how to punish him" ... because there is clearly something wrong in that boys head and no punishment would have changed that or put him off. The smart move would be to learn from this and try to make sure people like him get spottet and a) help oder b) locked away in one of these nice padded cells ...

Coming down with a mild case of dead would solve the problem quite nicely.

Aside from that (and the defense debate above) I think we need to revisit mental institutions; I believe it is clear that the "socialization as therapy" idea doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps it *is* a better idea that some of the mentally ill get locked away for keeps.

 

[Peter3hg]

The others, admittedly, did not have protagonists of as great an age, but that was because I was in a hurry and only searched for "grandmother" in my self-defense link archive. I'm still waiting to see a link about an 83+ year old British woman successfully fighting off a young assailant with her cane or stick.

You have been provided with a link of a 99 year old woman successfully scaring off her young assailants using a method other than a gun. That is all that is necessary to back up my claims. I would also dispute whether a person that is too frail to "wield" a stick could safely own and use a gun and whether they would actually be able to get at it and use it quick enough to be of any use anyway.
Your 85 year old female looks plenty healthy enough to me to use other methods.

 

[Interrobang]

Aside from that (and the defense debate above) I think we need to revisit mental institutions; I believe it is clear that the "socialization as therapy" idea doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps it *is* a better idea that some of the mentally ill get locked away for keeps

We have that over here (at least the possibility - sadly you often get the impression this option isnt used enough) ... but the problem is usually that the People who would belong there first have to commit crimes to get noticed ...

 

[Spectre]

You have been provided with a link of a 99 year old woman successfully scaring off her young assailants using a method other than a gun. That is all that is necessary to back up my claims. I would also dispute whether a person that is too frail to "wield" a stick could safely own and use a gun and whether they would actually be able to get at it and use it quick enough to be of any use anyway.
Your 85 year old female looks plenty healthy enough to me to use other methods.

Firearms do not require nearly as much strength or dexterity to hold or safely use as is required to employ a stick hard enough to dissuade someone from harming you; specifically grip strength is not an issue, something the aged have a problem with.

As for getting at it... if it is on one's person, it can be gotten to quickly, even for seniors. Even if you do not think that a firearm is appropriate, a Tazer would also be a good option with even less recoil. And, also, one that's banned in the name of Britain's apparent "Make Britain Safe For Criminals" programmes.

An entire branch of my family that lives over there is in the process of emigrating because it's gotten so bad in London. My point is that this sort of s**t is not tolerated "everywhere" and that the Brits really need to do something about it.

Some additional links for thought:
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/07/30/84-year-old-uses-handgun-to-stop-home-invader/
http://www.ifonlytheyhadagun.com/2008/08/23/77-year-old-landlord-set-on-fire-with-gasoline/
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/hp/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/01/06/sns010609shooting.html

We have that over here (at least the possibility - sadly you often get the impression this option isnt used enough) ... but the problem is usually that the People who would belong there first have to commit crimes to get noticed ...

We.... don't. Our mental health system is a sick joke; our mental institutions have been pretty much destroyed in favor of distributed "talk therapy" and "social therapy" bullshit.


Edit: Does anyone else see the unintended irony in this neg-rep I received?

There are other ways of self defense than guns. - Coward

How would a coward know?

 

[Peter3hg]

An entire branch of my family that lives over there is in the process of emigrating because it's gotten so bad in London. My point is that this sort of s**t is not tolerated "everywhere" and that the Brits really need to do something about it.

Somehow I doubt that is the real reason that your relatives are emigrating. 95% of the UK has practically none of the problems that some areas of London have, so why don't they move to a "better" area? All countries have shitty areas.
To prove your second point, provide me with proper statistical data to show that Britain as a whole is "worse" than the US as a whole (and Texas as well if you prefer).

Edit: the neg-rep was not left by me BTW. I don't neg-rep just because somehow has a differing view on an issue (and I always sign neg-reps anyway).

 

[Spectre]

Somehow I doubt that is the real reason that your relatives are emigrating. 95% of the UK has practically none of the problems that some areas of London have, so why don't they move to a "better" area? All countries have shitty areas.

That's their stated reason, anyway. IIRC, they didn't live far from London's Chelsea district. Seemed a nice enough place, but they're fed up with the Brit justice system (which makes London "bad"). Top Gear even commented about how Britain's prison system is a revolving door now, as you may recall. They were burgled twice in the last year, and they tell me that there's nowhere else in London or the surrounding areas that's apparently any better (by their admittedly unknown-to-me critera).

Secondary reason for leaving: Idiotic taxes, per them.

I tend to believe their stated reasons, because they're losing a lot of money and opportunities by leaving the UK. This isn't just a tax dodge, they're seriously writing off a lot of assets just to GTFO.

To prove your second point, provide me with proper statistical data to show that Britain as a whole is "worse" than the US as a whole (and Texas as well if you prefer).

I can if you want; specifically, I'm referring to Britain's tax and self defense stances. I think we can probably take Britain's terrible stance on self-defense as fact without having to pour a bunch of links in here. Here's something about the 60% income tax, for the other part.

Edit: the neg-rep was not left by me BTW. I don't neg-rep just because somehow has a differing view on an issue (and I always sign neg-reps anyway).

Yeah, I figured it wasn't you, but thought it was ironic all the same.

 

[Peter3hg]

Secondary reason for leaving: Idiotic taxes, per them.

I tend to believe their stated reasons, because they're losing a lot of money and opportunities by leaving the UK. This isn't just a tax dodge, they're seriously writing off a lot of assets just to GTFO.

Tax is a perfectly good reason to leave. We have been heavily taxed in this country for a long long time and it is unlikely change, even if the government does.

 

[Spectre]

The funny thing is, they used to be resigned to paying the high taxes there, as they believed it was worth the cost. Now, though, they claim that they fear for their safety and they no longer feel they are getting value for their tax (as in, "I pay how much money and this is the safety I get?").

 

[chaos386]

Most of those weren't actually in Texas, you know.

And how else, exactly, do you propose that a frail senior citizen defend themselves against a young thug? "Stop, or I shall yell stop again?!?!?!?!???!"

I am anxious to hear your answer.

I'm sure guns would help many senior citizens defend themselves. I'm not particularly sure it would have helped this one, since she has arthritis and the people on that side of the pond generally do not like guns, but that's not really my point. My point is that the gun debate is a hot issue on this forum (you of all people should know this), and I'd wish you'd keep it to the Political Discussion section.