2010 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

[Dr_Grip]

I feel sorry for Massa, Alonso is an ass

Seconded. His "This is ridiculous!" whine on team radio when he was actually challenged to overtake Massa said it all.

And i have to disagree with Red_Bull here: It obviously was a team order, not only against the spirit of the rule. Including all the "I'm sorry, Felipe" stuff and so on, it was an obvious team order. Orchestrating position changes with pit stops and the like, that's against the spirit of the rule. I can see why some people (including DC) say that it would be better for the sport if being straightforward about team order would not be punished while being sneaky is rewarded, but we should all remember HOW this rule came in effect first place.

 

[jpmfan]

Seconded. His "This is ridiculous!" whine on team radio when he was actually challenged to overtake Massa said it all.

And i have to disagree with Red_Bull here: It obviously was a team order, not only against the spirit of the rule. Including all the "I'm sorry, Felipe" stuff and so on, it was an obvious team order. Orchestrating position changes with pit stops and the like, that's against the spirit of the rule. I can see why some people (including DC) say that it would be better for the sport if being straightforward about team order would not be punished while being sneaky is rewarded, but we should all remember HOW this rule came in effect first place.

agree with both bits there (Dr_Grip and rowd22's comment)

however i fear that Ferrari yet again will get away with this, or at most they will get some fine to pay (which compared to how much they spend each year will be tiny). Would have been great for Massa to have one, especially one year to the day that he almost lost his life.

Ferrari are insulting the fans by trying to cover the whole thing up, we know what happened. Beginning to think that the stewards meetings need to have the people hooked up to lie detectors to help with the investigation, especially in cases like this.

 

[MacGuffin]

And it's interesting to note that you didn't give a similar melodramatic verse when Vettel was favored by his team and given the superior front wing, especially seeing as they were much closer in the championship points.

I didn't watch that race. But I would have spoken out against it, if it would have manipulated the race result in the same way. And by the way: I neither support any team, nor am I a declared fan of a certain driver. I watch this whole sport from the perspective of "May the best one win". I wish everyone else would, too. At least enough to keep a fair and unbiased view on things.

But I have to accept, that it is probably a waste of time to discuss this topic with someone who has a nickname and an avatar like you

 

[Xeon SX]

I am angry about the whole situation but in fairness, Ferrari and Massa are in the wrong. Ferrari for giving team orders and Massa for carrying them out. Both know such actions are disallowed.

 

[Dr_Grip]

I am angry about the whole situation but in fairness, Ferrari and Massa are in the wrong. Ferrari for giving team orders and Massa for carrying them out. Both know such actions are disallowed.

Yep. It's not about weather it's a good rule or not. Both the "it's a team sport" and the "being upfront should not be punished" arguments point at the rule being a bad one, but still, it's a rule, thus has to be obeyed.

 

[ahpadt]

Ferrari has been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motor Sport Council for team orders and bringing sport into disrepute

http://twitter.com/NobleF1/status/19505238084

After speaking to Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa the FIA race stewards in Hockenheim have found Ferrari guilty of breaching Article 151C, which refers to bringing the sport into disrepute, in addition to breaking Article 39.1, the team orders rule. It says, ?Team orders which interfere with a race are prohbited.?


The result stands as of today, but the matter will be referred to the World Motor Sport Council and the team has been fined $100,000.


It?s a fascinating scenario because Jean Todt will inevitably be at the heart of whatever happens next. on the one hand he is well versed in the intricacies of team orders, and on the other, he is of course like a second father to Massa. As FIA President he takes a step back from the actual process but he will clearly be a major player in the coming days.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/07/25/ferrari-fined-100000-and-face-wmsc-enquiry/

 

[MacGuffin]

And let's not forget the reason why this rule was introduced back then, when Barichello was told to let Schumacher pass "for he championship".

The bitch about rules is, that they're for all and not only for those one doesn't care for

 

[mpicco]

agree with both bits there (Dr_Grip and rowd22's comment)

however i fear that Ferrari yet again will get away with this, or at most they will get some fine to pay (which compared to how much they spend each year will be tiny). Would have been great for Massa to have one, especially one year to the day that he almost lost his life.

Ferrari are insulting the fans by trying to cover the whole thing up, we know what happened. Beginning to think that the stewards meetings need to have the people hooked up to lie detectors to help with the investigation, especially in cases like this.

What. The. Hell?!
Lie detectors?
This is getting ridiculous.
There's nothing to get away with people. Team orders never went away, undestand that. They are just more subtle and disguised, they didn't go away and never will.
Again, put yourself in this hypothetical situation.
Abu Dhabi, last race of the championship.
Current standings:
Vettel- 195
Hamilton- 187
Everyone else is out of the run.
Current race positions:
P1 Button
P2 Hamilton
P3 Vettel

For those of you who dont bother doing the maths, finishing like this, Vettel wins the championship with 210 points to Hamilton's 205.
If Button lets Hamilton through, Hamilton wins with 212 points.
Do you honestly think for a second McLaren wouldn't have a pre-race briefing with the pilots telling them that in this situation Button must let Hamilton through? Even if they disguise it as a fake battle with Button losing P1 on purpose?
Please, don't be so naive. This has happened before, in all teams, will keep happening, more or less subtlely. Yes there's a rule against telling a driver to let the other one through. It's the same kind of rule that says you can't tell a model she's too fat, but you can tell her as her manager you got her a gym membership so she can be healthier, and then wink. She'll get the message.

 

[MacGuffin]

Assuming that everyone else breaks the rules anyway, isn't a justification for yourself breaking them, too. It's like tax evasion: Sure, many others do it, too. But that doesn't help you, if it's YOU who got caught

 

[mpicco]

It's not about that. It's about the fact there's no way in hell to make this rule work. No lie detectors, no hidden microphones, nothing. Team orders have, and always will exist. You better live with it, stop being naive and or ignorant, and move on.
Whats the difference between having this or having someone fake a mistake going wide in a corner to make the pass look legit? Is that better for you? Cos you'll never know if it was a team order or not.

Also if this rule was put in effect cos of Barrichello and Schumacher, I have to piss my pants laughing at the people saying the FIA favours Ferrari...

 

[the Interceptor]

Reading this thread hurts, it really does. Not because what's being written here is so stupid, rather than the unbearable amount of "passion" that is going on.

 

[Dr_Grip]

There's nothing to get away with people. Team orders never went away, undestand that. They are just more subtle and disguised, they didn't go away and never will.

As i said, it can be asked if the "no team orders" rule makes any sense at all, and most likely it does not as it rewards cheating. That does not make Ferrari breaking the rule any brighter or better.

 

[jpmfan]

What. The. Hell?!
Lie detectors?
This is getting ridiculous.
There's nothing to get away with people. Team orders never went away, undestand that. They are just more subtle and disguised, they didn't go away and never will.

well how else could you truly get to the bottom of it. Ferrari will have known after what happened and the clumsy messages that went back and forth that the fans/public would smell that something wasnt right.

we all know that team orders go on in F1, no-one is doubting that, but when you do it so blatantly infront of the world then try cover up the fact of it, thats when its stupid.

you could hear from the messages, see Massa's body language outta the car and on the podium that he was not happy. then you see Stefano walking with Massa after the podium BEFORE going infront of the press. it was all a case of trying to cover up the shit job they made of the switch.

at this point in the season i think its stupid to ask Massa to let Alonso by, sure he's behind in points but he'll never catch up if he's asked to move aside all the time, and with the new points system he could pull that back quickly. Plus give the guy a break, he almost died a year ago today, he drove a great race, Alonso couldnt make a pass stick so why should he move out of the way.

F1 drivers are not actors so it was plain to see that what they were saying is bullshit compared to the body language. (Massa now turning around saying it was his call), i know its extreme but in cases like this lie detectors would cut through that thin vial of "acting" and we could see that the wool is being pulled over our eyes.

someone with a Ferrari in his sig obviously isnt going to be bias about this now would they

 

[Red_Bull]

And i have to disagree with Red_Bull here: It obviously was a team order, not only against the spirit of the rule. Including all the "I'm sorry, Felipe" stuff and so on, it was an obvious team order. Orchestrating position changes with pit stops and the like, that's against the spirit of the rule. I can see why some people (including DC) say that it would be better for the sport if being straightforward about team order would not be punished while being sneaky is rewarded, but we should all remember HOW this rule came in effect first place.

Prove it. I dont think the act of Massa letting Alonso through after that message is proof enough. Ferrari only suggested to Massa that Alonso was faster. It wasn't an order as such unless you can prove that those words had a deeper meaning. A taping of the meeting that took place where the Ferrari team decided should that sentence be uttered during a race to one of it's drivers, he must relinquish the position immediately. If you can find that, then that'll be proof enough, otherwise it's all just speculation.

 

[jedd_kenobi]

while i understand how team orders are still around and that its doubtful that its going to go away. the thing that annoys me is that Ferrari made it painfully obvious what they were telling Massa to do. to go around and then act like nothing happened just throws salt in the wound. i don't care if they had done it secretly or something. its the fact that they did it in plain view and act like everyone else who saw it is a retard.
i'm not a ferrari fan and i'm even less of a Alonso fan (in fact he's probably my least favorite driver on the track) so my opinion is always going to be biased. i just think that ferrari should have got their heads screwed on and come up with a better plan than the one they came up with in front of the tv cameras.

 

[mpicco]

The bottom line is this.
You're not pissed because the rule was broken. You're pissed because Ferrari was a bit careless and it was too obvious. This "rule" was broken under your nose countless times, it just was well disguised sometimes, other times not so well (like Vettel's front wing). You have to not know F1 very well, or be very naive, to think Ferrari is the only team breaking the rule.
We all know all teams have team orders, you're all in uproar because Ferrari got caught and the other teams didnt. But don't pretend they're the only ones breaking the rule...

And this just proves my point:

while i understand how team orders are still around and that its doubtful that its going to go away. the thing that annoys me is that Ferrari made it painfully obvious what they were telling Massa to do.

You're all alright with team orders, as long as teams are deceiving enough to hide and conceal them as something else.
Please, get some common sense...

And honestly if McLaren had the race practically won like Ferrari did, they can shuffle their points however they like for all I care.
The moral victory still goes to Massa today and he drove a fantastic race, nobody cares about the result, he proved a point and he's shown he's back. Lets hope he keeps that form for the next races. Cos, again, I care more about the constructor's championship than the Driver's.

 

[jpmfan]

The bottom line is this.
You're not pissed because the rule was broken. You're pissed because Ferrari was a bit careless and it was too obvious. This "rule" was broken under your nose countless times, it just was well disguised sometimes, other times not so well (like Vettel's front wing). You have to not know F1 very well, or be very naive, to think Ferrari is the only team breaking the rule.
We all know all teams have team orders, you're all in uproar because Ferrari got caught and the other teams didnt. But don't pretend they're the only ones breaking the rule...

And this just proves my point:


You're all alright with team orders, as long as teams are deceiving enough to hide and conceal them as something else.
Please, get some common sense...

we're not saying team orders are ok, and we all know it happens but when you screw up and make it obvious to the world then go and try cover it up after you realise that you made it too obvious then thats an insult to the rest of F1, the press, and the fans.

this incident helps to show that the whole team order rule needs to be looked at again, because its not an easy one to police. But if you break it as obviously as Ferrari did today you should be punished, and especially if you are lying and trying to cover it up.

Lewis tried to lie and cover up Oz 2009, he was found out and punished.

We know that there are lots of things happening in F1 and motorsport that are against the rules, (i just finished a degree in motorsport tech, one of my tutors has worked in BTCC, WTCC, and many other high levels of motorsport, and he'd tell us all the tales of teams breaking the rules all the time).

The fans, or at least the hardcore fans know it happens, but when you make it obvious dont expect to get away with it. They could have easily had some code like the BBC team said, something like "the G8 Golf 8 mixture isnt working" the driver then knows and perhaps runs wide at the next corner.

Massa could have done this today, just run wide at turn 6, but instead he was on 50% throttle for a good 300m coming out of the hairpin which allowed Alonso by. If he had decided to make the move himself then he wouldnt have done so in a way that said "hey everyone look at whats happening here"

 

[the Interceptor]

You're all alright with team orders, as long as teams are deceiving enough to hide and conceal them as something else.
Please, get some common sense...

So common sense is Ferrari clearly applying team orders and then stepping in front of the cameras and claiming that they didn't? Or is that passion again?

 

[shad_68]

Wait, there's something I just remembered that seems fitting...

"Yeah Ferrari fans never quite understand what rules really mean, we know. But we understand it's a part of the sport as the racing or pit stops. There's no explaining, its a rule, you follow it or you dont. And Ferrari generally doesn't."

The credit for inspiration goes to mpicco.

 

[ViperVX]

Ferrari aren't stupid, Smedley isn't either, they probably wanter to get 'caught' or simply wanted to put a spotlight back on the issue, perhaps pushing to legalize team orders (since most of the teams are still issuing such orders and with Todd in FIA they probably could) or maybe even to shut down Alonso once and for all with his "get red of the car in front of me" calls.