Can someone explain to me why anyone wants to vote for McCain/Palin?

(I've always thought that the question of "when does life begin" should be determined by the medical community, not legislators, attorneys or judges.)

And I've always thought it was readily apparent to anybody who completed high school biology and has even a rudimentary grasp of logic.

How can it logically begin anywhere but conception? To say otherwise is absurd. It's an exercise in distorting science and logic to fit a politically convenient twisted redefinition.

Something that grows is alive. If a zygote->embryo/fetus is not alive, what magic event occurs that makes a supposedly non-living thing suddenly alive?
 
All this Ayers/Wright/Whatever bullshit is only the sign of a desperate McCain campaign. McCain's communications staff of late has been pathetic. First they issue a press release about dropping Michigan and then about actively ignoring the issues and pursuing an attack on Obama's "character and record". Obama didn't even meet Ayers until the '90s, when he is a more or less respectable professor. As far as Wright, whatever. McCain wouldn't even bring up either tie in the debate. He knows that the only result of that would be the Obama campaign calling McCain on the whole Keating 5 scandal of the late '80s.

Indeed McCain's recent tactic stinks of desperation. The question for McCain supporters is, why did he wait until one month left in the election to raise these questions? The answer is McCain is trying to be civil and not going to that until it was too late.

And regarding the Keating 5, McCain was exonerated while Obama campaign advisor John Glen was not.
 
And I've always thought it was readily apparent to anybody who completed high school biology and has even a rudimentary grasp of logic.

How can it logically begin anywhere but conception? To say otherwise is absurd. It's an exercise in distorting science and logic to fit a politically convenient twisted redefinition.

Something that grows is alive. If a zygote->embryo/fetus is not alive, what magic event occurs that makes a supposedly non-living thing suddenly alive?

I guess you didn't complete high school biology and/or don't have a rudimentary grasp of logic.

A zygote/early embryo is:
Asystolic by virtue of not having a heart
Brain dead by virtue of not having a brain

By those criteria, an embryo is less alive than an asystolic, brain dead accident victim who is being artificially perfused while his organs are harvested. Is he alive? The 'brain dead' part suggests not.

An embryo is biologically no more human than a liver cell or skin cell. Skin cells die all the time... you're covered by them. Does this mean that skin cells are human beings and it's evil to kill them?

I suggest you'll now note that a skin cell won't become a person left to its own devices. Quite fallacious, indeed. The numbers I've seen suggest that between 60 and 80% of fertilized zygotes do not make it to birth (either dying before implantation or spontaneously aborting).

So, I would say it's fundamentally untenable to insist unilaterally that 'basic science proves zygotes are human babies' as well as an odious misuse of science for religious purposes.


Further, to cross into the social sciences, it could be plausibly argued that even at birth a child of human parents is not 'human.' Abandoned, left to its own, it will not resemble in adulthood anything you or I associate with 'humanity'. Fortunately, such feral children are quite uncommon, but the point is clear. Without the early childhood education in humanity, a child will never learn to speak. Human DNA does not guarantee humanity.

But that is tangential to the point. What matters is that zygotes are not 'living beings', are not the same as human children. Anyone who would contend otherwise must seriously underestimate the profoundness and beauty of life.
 
[...]If a zygote->embryo/fetus is not alive, what magic event occurs that makes a supposedly non-living thing suddenly alive?
It?s a topic that has been debated for centuries now, and there is hardly any consencus on that. It?s the question of "what is life, what is it worth and what makes us humans". There are a lot of aspects taken into consideration here and I doubt that it is a topic fit for politics. It puzzels (and puzzeld) scientists as well as philosophers for centuires now, it?s hardly something where you can come up with an easy answer. The views go from "even masturbation is murder because every sperm could be a baby" to "a human life in general is nothing more worth than an animal" ... and thankfully a lot in between ...
 
Indeed McCain's recent tactic stinks of desperation. The question for McCain supporters is, why did he wait until one month left in the election to raise these questions? The answer is McCain is trying to be civil and not going to that until it was too late.

And regarding the Keating 5, McCain was exonerated while Obama campaign advisor John Glen was not.
I do appreciate McCain not giving into such desperate politics sooner. But it's just completely hypocritical of him to do so at all. He's the one, who for the last 4 years, 8 years, decades, whatever who has condemned smear campaigns. But he (or at least his aides) knows that no matter how much people loathe them, they do work. Unfortunately it's probably far too late for such a campaign. Now he's just sacrificing his integrity while still losing the campaign.

The real mindblowing part of the whole thing is that his campaign announces all this crap. "We're leaving Michigan." "We don't want to debate the issues." "We're actively, openly switching to a negative campaign." He should've fired his communications staff a long time ago.

As for the Keating 5, yes McCain was exonerated. And as far as I know, John Glen isn't running for President ;). I think that the argument is about as much bullshit as McCain's campaign trying to paint Barack Hussein Obama as a terrorist, but if they want to play in the mud then the Obama campaign can't ignore it. That's one thing that screwed Kerry and Gore; their unwillingness to really respond to negative campaigning.
 
Funny story. Scary story. Today I was taking a break with a girl I sort of work with, twenty-something, college student, real Obama supporter, bumper sticker on her car, wears the pin. I think she tried to convert me today on break. Started talking politics, which I don't like to do with tangible people, who I see more often than not.

Topic went to the economy, kinda asked her how Obama can cut taxes, and institute more programs and spending? I don't remember her answer, I'm sure it was useless. What I do remember is when she said, "Umm, why don't they just take the old money that they're gonna just throw away and pay the really poor peoples taxes with that." Glad she's a democrat :D
 
Topic went to the economy, kinda asked her how Obama can cut taxes, and institute more programs and spending? I don't remember her answer, I'm sure it was useless. What I do remember is when she said, "Umm, why don't they just take the old money that they're gonna just throw away and pay the really poor peoples taxes with that." Glad she's a democrat

Lol, good stuff. A very common occurrence, stupid Obama supporters.
 
Lol, good stuff. A very common occurrence, stupid Obama supporters.

If i recall correctly in the recent debate Obama explained his tax plan. Tax cuts for ppl with less than 250k/year, tax increase for all who make more than that. Sounds quite reasonable, but i can understand why ppl don't want to pay more.

Although i must say after i watched the debate i really got more respect for both candidates, but, it's the Media, TV-shows, celebrities and so on who are gonna win this for Obama.
 
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Funny story. Scary story. Today I was taking a break with a girl I sort of work with, twenty-something, college student, real Obama supporter, bumper sticker on her car, wears the pin. I think she tried to convert me today on break. Started talking politics, which I don't like to do with tangible people, who I see more often than not.

Topic went to the economy, kinda asked her how Obama can cut taxes, and institute more programs and spending? I don't remember her answer, I'm sure it was useless. What I do remember is when she said, "Umm, why don't they just take the old money that they're gonna just throw away and pay the really poor peoples taxes with that." Glad she's a democrat :D
:lol: Even though that's really economic stupidity than Obama stupidity, that's still funny.

Lol, good stuff. A very common occurrence, stupid Obama supporters.
God forbid there aren't any stupid McCain supporters, right?

Let's face it: most college kids are absolutely retarded when it comes to politics. At least I have the good graces of admitting that I don't know shit and not trying to start a debate. :p
 
:lol: Even though that's really economic stupidity than Obama stupidity, that's still funny.


God forbid there aren't any stupid McCain supporters, right?

Let's face it: most college kids are absolutely retarded when it comes to politics. At least I have the good graces of admitting that I don't know shit and not trying to start a debate. :p

People lapped up our prime minister here because the thought he was cool for going on some shitty talk show (rove)
 
I guess you didn't complete high school biology and/or don't have a rudimentary grasp of logic.

A zygote/early embryo is:
Asystolic by virtue of not having a heart
Brain dead by virtue of not having a brain

By those criteria, an embryo is less alive than an asystolic, brain dead accident victim who is being artificially perfused while his organs are harvested. Is he alive? The 'brain dead' part suggests not.

An embryo is biologically no more human than a liver cell or skin cell. Skin cells die all the time... you're covered by them. Does this mean that skin cells are human beings and it's evil to kill them?

I suggest you'll now note that a skin cell won't become a person left to its own devices. Quite fallacious, indeed. The numbers I've seen suggest that between 60 and 80% of fertilized zygotes do not make it to birth (either dying before implantation or spontaneously aborting).

So, I would say it's fundamentally untenable to insist unilaterally that 'basic science proves zygotes are human babies' as well as an odious misuse of science for religious purposes.


Further, to cross into the social sciences, it could be plausibly argued that even at birth a child of human parents is not 'human.' Abandoned, left to its own, it will not resemble in adulthood anything you or I associate with 'humanity'. Fortunately, such feral children are quite uncommon, but the point is clear. Without the early childhood education in humanity, a child will never learn to speak. Human DNA does not guarantee humanity.

But that is tangential to the point. What matters is that zygotes are not 'living beings', are not the same as human children. Anyone who would contend otherwise must seriously underestimate the profoundness and beauty of life.

Holy crap, you're one of those people who thinks a living breathing healthy infant is not human!

You are twisting science to fit your social view that abortion is acceptable.

Human beings start as two single cells that combine their DNA to a single fertilized cell that is a new human being. That cell undergoes instantaneous division, cell diversification happens, et al. Of course a single fertilized cell doesn't have a brain, but 9 months later the child that pops out DOES have a brain. Certainly we can talk about the various developmental stages and cell diversification and the earliest formations of things like eyes, the brain, et al.

But fundamentally, the thing you overlook is the thing I cannot; to your point that from the single-cell phase to the point where the zygote/embryo has not yet developed a brain or a beating heart. What magic external event occurs that suddenly makes a heart that beats, or a brain that processes information? Answer -- there is none. The magic event is fertilization. There is no secondary external event that suddenly makes the developing baby "human". Therefore it always is. Everything that happens is locked away inside that single fertilized cell. Fertilization is neccessary and sufficient in the natural course (aside from implantation in the uterus of course).

I would say that anything that grows and undergoes cellular mitosis is alive, starting at the most basic microbiological level.

A skin cell does not produce a human being left to its own devices (well not until we continue pushing the envelope with cloning). A fertilized egg does.

You believe in twisting a cold, clinical definition of "alive" to determine a developing baby is "not human". I believe in the logical inscrutability of the impossibility of something that is not human becoming human without a distinct, verifiable and observable external stimulus. Especially when, left to the normal course of natural development, said "unviable tissue mass" becomes a baby. What is this magic event that makes something not human become human? And can we apply it to a skin cell, a dog, a salt shaker?

To return to civility (it's hard not to get charged about such a fundamental debate), I guess it comes down to kinetic (is this mass of cells "human" right now) versus potential (it will be, left to the natural course of events, and therefore it is and always was). And fundamentally I don't see a magic external event that makes something non-human become human, especially when we can have arguments about what "human" actually is -- such as your argument that a living breathing human may be declassified as human based on socialization. Therefore, logically it must extend to creation (fertilization). We can't make skin cells or plant cells or salt crystals become a human being.

The corollary to this is the following: how does something that is "not alive" become alive? Again this magical non-existent external stimulus. How does something that is not alive suddenly and fuzzily become alive, what is the magical event that happens? If we can answer that question, then we hold the key towards the animation of nonliving substances. The answer, of course, is that it always was alive.
 
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So by this argument, birth control is abortion.

Since you didn't take biology in high school, let me inform you of one further interesting nugget of information. Until 11 weeks after implantation, there is no fundamental structural difference between the fetus of a human and the fetus of pretty much any mammal (sparing the platypus). If given a fetal pig, a fetal cow and a fetal human at 10 weeks, you'd be pretty hard-pressed to tell the difference between them. My view is that it's not alive until the pregnancy could potentially be viable outside of the mother's womb. With advances in modern medicine, that's about 24 weeks. I don't advocate late term abortions like this, nor do I advocate using abortion as birth control. I just think it's necessary to note that before this time, the lungs haven't developed, nor has the spine.

Oh, and by the way, the "natural course of events" is throwing down a massive contingency. Blastocysts often fail to implant, and roughly 80% of pregnancies end in miscarriage.
 
Lol, good stuff. A very common occurrence, stupid Obama supporters.
:rolleyes: There's an avid McCain supporter at my work who believes that Obama is a socialist and probably a terrorist. He also believes that a continuation of Bush's tax policy will spur development and that we should go to war with Iran and North Korea.

Most voters, no matter what their party affiliation, are stupid. Personally I'd prefer that uninformed people don't vote, but I don't think politicians feel the same way.

janstett said:
You are twisting science to fit your social view that abortion is acceptable
It is.
 
:rolleyes: There's an avid McCain supporter at my work who believes that Obama is a socialist and probably a terrorist. He also believes that a continuation of Bush's tax policy will spur development and that we should go to war with Iran and North Korea.

You sure his name wasn't jetsetter?
 
Most voters, no matter what their party affiliation, are stupid. Personally I'd prefer that uninformed people don't vote, but I don't think politicians feel the same way.

Agreed. One of the things I like about Obama's campaign, though, is that he hasn't always rendered his message in terms that a third-grader could understand. Oversimplification of incredibly important issues, like foreign policy (You're either with us or against us), is pretty reckless and dangerous. The American people as a whole are not particularly smart, but we can understand some nuance in certain things. For example, people probably couldn't completely understand the difficulties with US policy in Pakistan, but they likely could understand that it's too complicated to either dub them only allies or enemies, because of the complex power dynamic in that nation.
 
But fundamentally, the thing you overlook is the thing I cannot; to your point that from the single-cell phase to the point where the zygote/embryo has not yet developed a brain or a beating heart. What magic external event occurs that suddenly makes a heart that beats, or a brain that processes information? Answer -- there is none. The magic event is fertilization. There is no secondary external event that suddenly makes the developing baby "human". Therefore it always is. Everything that happens is locked away inside that single fertilized cell. Fertilization is neccessary and sufficient in the natural course (aside from implantation in the uterus of course).

This isn't about 'magic' or what your romantic preconceptions about reproduction. I assume you've never witnessed the birth of a child, or you'd be more reluctant to talk about 'magic events.'

Since you're clearly a little lax on biology, maybe you should read up on parasites. Parasites are living creatures which exploit a host for nutrition. Tapeworms are living creatures. It is neither illegal nor wrong for a woman to remove it.
Embryos are smaller than tapeworms, but they're just as parasitic. Embryos, like tapeworms, cannot survive on their own. Embryos don't have feelings, and, oh yeah, did I mention they're not clinically alive? Sure, an embryo consists of living cells - kind of like a colony of bacteria.

I could go on, but I think you should clarify something first:
I think it would be prudent of you to note that you are neither a scientist nor a medical doctor, and that you profess an ongoing belief in a creator-god. These will clear up your argument immensely.
 
God forbid there aren't any stupid McCain supporters, right?

Of course there are, I didn't say otherwise.

Being in California we have more Obama supporters total so we have more stupid Obama supporters. Combine that with me going to college and you can see how I would encounter them quite often.

I do wonder if I would have gotten the same response had I said that McCain supporters were stupid.

You sure his name wasn't jetsetter?

Ooooooo.;)
 
God forbid there aren't any stupid McCain supporters, right?
Nope, they're are plenty from both sides. I know people who's idea of immigration control is 400 miles of M2 machine guns and some Abrams tanks. Which is undoubtedly cooler then any democratic immigration control plan, until you consider those guns are aimed at human beings like you and me.

Just funny how ill-informed people can be. That, and short-sightedness seem to be the some bad traits some Americans have today.
 
Maybe it has been posted...I wouldn't say "stupid" but definitely misinformed...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7R-s-71csY[/youtube]
 
At first i though all the Joe Six Packs, who who called obama Terrorist and such, pointing to his midle name, were simply racist. Now i am more convinced that they are simply stupid, in a non-offeinsive way, just not smart enough or not educated well enough to identify the truth from lies media throws at them, and to analyse any particular candidate's programme.

There's been many arguments in this thread about Obama and McCains programmes and policies, about which will be the most effective if at all, but that's what should be done, analysing programmes, taking them to pieces, and so on.

Seems the majority of Americans (young and old) are voting for the guy they like the most only based on appearance and relativity to their social level.

Someone should just buy 5 minutes of TV on a national channel and announce the good old tested political cliche, - when it comes to politics to trust nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
 
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