What if?.. (American isolation thread)

Censport said:
To contrast, Japan has been an isolationist country for two major periods of its history. Serious isolation, where entire parts of the world didn't know it existed, and only minimal trading with a single country occured (Interestingly, that introduced sexually transmitted diseases to Japan as well. Just can't trust those Dutch. :p ) When opened, it was discovered to be an advanced country with the world's most populated city, and the best sword-making techniques (among other skills). They were doing fine without us. I think we've given them red meat and dentistry (and probably a few more STDs), and that's about it.
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There's a crucial difference between Japan and China in those years. Japan at that time was still a regional upstart and not a relative superpower like China. It never had laurels to rest on, so it was more flexible in response to the threat of Western imperialism and thus managed to absorb Western traits for its own betterment. China, on the other hand, was huge, wealthy, but paralyzed by its bureaucracy, size, and its heritage of "we're the best, nobody else can teach us anything useful" that got more and more entrenched as isolationism went on. You're right that isolationism itself is no guarantee of a nation's future. However, isolationism for a regional power or superpower is a surefire path to decline.
 
oh and you wouldn't get South Park
 
IF the US sought military isolation, that is, freedom from foreign entanglement, I'd be all for it. That doesn't mean economic isolation though. There's no reason that we can't trade, loan/borrow money and participate in world politics, we did so (more or less) without major entanglements for nearly 150 years pre-WWI. I think that with the UN in place, even as limp-wristed as they can be, the world wouldn't fall apart without our military power spread over the globe.

It would make a lot of people happy, and there could also be a backlash. But overall I think it would be for the best. How much money would that free up for improvements to infrastructure and education? To buy back our debt? Hell, how much less in taxes would I have to pay?


anti-net said:
What would stop Russia from invading the US?
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As for fearing the Russians, come on. But since you put forth the question I'll give my opinion. If we truly meant to follow isolationism then it wouldn't matter who they attacked. If those countries cannot defend themselves it is not our problem. Not unless they interfere with our trade and kill our citizens (see WWI). Even taking nuclear weapons and the concept of mutually assured destruction out of the question; it would be pure idiocy to invade the US. The insurgency would be crippling. In WWII Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto supposedly told his colleagues, "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."




SuperStalin said:
I sure hope there will be another cold war. USA, as the only superpower, has been acting like Cartman when he becomes the hallway monitor.
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You need to go talk to someone who actually lived during the Cold War. Someone who was told that crouching under their school desk would save them from the A-Bomb. Someone who saw their own troops shoot college students. Go read up on McCarthyism; people being jailed and blacklisted because of suspicions. Yeah, we need another excuse to further erode our personal freedoms while dumping billions upon billions into weapons programs that will only lead to the mutually assured destruction of all nations should conflict arise. The threat of terrorism isn't enough, sure, we need a new nation to hate.

/Rant. Damn that makes me mad. I hope you were joking.
 
jetsetter said:
A steady list of military conflicts, interventions, etc from 1776 till today.
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Never said we were peaceful. Almost every single one of those conflicts up until WWI were to secure land/trade or in retaliation for an attack. There's nothing wrong with that. But once we started forming alliances and making promises we quit going to war for our own reasons. We get entangled because we're Britians ally, or because we're in NATO, or because we signed some asinine agreement 23 years ago or whatever.

Isolationism is defined as (wiki):
A foreign policy which combines a non-interventionist military policy and a political policy of economic nationalism (protectionism). In other words, it asserts both of the following:
1. Non-interventionism ? Political rulers should avoid entangling alliances with other nations and avoid all wars not related to direct territorial self-defense.
2. Protectionism ? There should be legal barriers to control trade and cultural exchange with people in other states.
 
SuperStalin said:
I sure hope there will be another cold war.
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That is, bar none, the absolutely most ignorant statement I have ever seen.

I lived through the Cold War and remember distinctly knowing as a child that the end of the world could happen. The idea of an all-out atomic war was not only possible, but at many times, seemingly probable.

I crossed through Checkpoint Charlie and they used mirrors to check underneath the bus we were on. There were real walls and minefields and machineguns in the towers along the Wall.

The term "Fulda Gap" was at the forefront of everyone's mind.

Bombers carrying atom bombs were ALWAYS airborne to protect against first strikes.

I could go on and on... but I think even those points demonstrate the total insanity of your statement.

Steve
 
I agree the USA was only isolated when it suited - WWI : making loads of money supplyong everything from horses to military equipment and despite the loss of Americans on the sea. This was until the Germans did something really stupid - Mexico and the Zimmerman telegraph.

WWII a huge and well funded (I wonder by whom) German American Bund - lets hear it for Lindy!

Unitil Japan attacked and the Germans declared war on America several days after Dec 7th. After that the US thought that they may want to fight the Germans.

Oh no shit that's not it, US politicians sat around and said "Lets save the sorry asses of the Brits so that all Americans evermore can say - 'we saved your sorry asses' to the Brits." obviously. Rather than have NO CHOICE in the matter.
 
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Steve Levin said:
That is, bar none, the absolutely most ignorant statement I have ever seen.
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Depends. I'm not an American, so from my perspective, the less USA does its thing around the world, the better.

I lived through the Cold War and remember distinctly knowing as a child that the end of the world could happen. The idea of an all-out atomic war was not only possible, but at many times, seemingly probable.

I crossed through Checkpoint Charlie and they used mirrors to check underneath the bus we were on. There were real walls and minefields and machineguns in the towers along the Wall.

The term "Fulda Gap" was at the forefront of everyone's mind.

Bombers carrying atom bombs were ALWAYS airborne to protect against first strikes.

I could go on and on... but I think even those points demonstrate the total insanity of your statement.

Steve
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Yep, but the rest of the world lived fine without US imperialism.
 
That is not a rebuttal - that is saying our (US) imperialism beat your (Soviet) imperialism. Both certainly beat ours.
 
I don't like Soviet imperialism either... Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, USA invaded Serbia, Iraq...
all in all, there's too much suffering, greed and stupidity, and its the result of the people who also have the power
to make the world a much better place... that's the most annoying fact.
 
SuperStalin said:
I don't like Soviet imperialism either... Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, USA invaded Serbia, Iraq...
all in all, there's too much suffering, greed and stupidity, and its the result of the people who also have the power
to make the world a much better place... that's the most annoying fact.
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Slight correction - Bombed Serbia, invaded Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan and had a good go at Vietnam (but lost big time).

Succeed in breaking up the British Empire - so good on them, I suppose.
 
Cobol74 said:
That is not a rebuttal - that is saying our (US) imperialism beat your (Soviet) imperialism. Both certainly beat ours.
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I'm not so sure.
 
Being speechless and mentioning the NASTY Soviet invasion of Checkslovakia in 1968 (which I remember btw) is not a rebuttal to an accusation of imperialism now is it?
 
Cobol74 said:
Being speechless and mentioning the NASTY Soviet invasion of Checkslovakia in 1968 (which I remember btw) is not a rebuttal to an accusation of imperialism now is it?
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I am speaking of the last bit of your statement, comparing American and Soviet imperialism to British imperialism.
 
SuperStalin said:
Depends. I'm not an American, so from my perspective, the less USA does its thing around the world, the better.

Yep, but the rest of the world lived fine without US imperialism.
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First off, that is no counter to "I wish the Cold War would return."

Second of all, precisely which things do you wish the US hadn't been engaged in? Broadly speaking, which people have been wronged by American action?

And that's not saying that everything America does is right, but there's a clear case that the majority of American action has led to better lives for people.

Without American action, most people would be living in vastly worse conditions with far less freedom and privilege than they do today.

Steve
 
Cobol74 said:
Being speechless and mentioning the NASTY Soviet invasion of Checkslovakia in 1968 (which I remember btw) is not a rebuttal to an accusation of imperialism now is it?
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I meant that saying that parts of the World that were out of reach of 'US imperialism' lived fine during the Cold war, which was supporting SuperStalin's previous statement that he would welcome the restoration of the Cold war, is ridiculous. The implication I sense from SuperStalin's posts is that any arrangement of the World powers is fine as long as Serbia is allowed to do whatever it likes.
 
I'm sure some of you have found this: http://americaintheworld.typepad.com/home/ which is a blog about trying to stop "anti-Americanism". But I think its missed the spot a bit, which is proves in this post: http://americaintheworld.typepad.com/home/2008/08/when-it-comes-t.html

British people don't _hate_ Americans but they aren't happy with some serious foreign policy mainly in dealing with Iraq, there is, of course a lack of understanding of why Iraq went tits up and if you want to know more I recommend you watch the documentary No End in Sight which looks at the objections to the war in a bit more of an intelligent manner and how post-war planning was flawed or non-existent. The main objection of non-Americans to America is not its people or its culture (yes there are disagreement but I think that's called "culture clash") but that little shit

That monkey of a man

That annoying little fucker

george-bush-sour.jpg

That guy...
 
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