What cars do you consider 'brilliant failures'?

Dsemaj said:
No... NOOOOOO!!!! HOW ON EARTH COULD THEY!? That's insane!
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*All* the American makers were slow to move to overdrive transmissions; the American aftermarket/repackage/kit/builder market was even slower to adopt them once they'd come out.

For decades, *nobody* in Detroit or the satellite orbits around it seemed to figure out that overdrive transmissions plus a "normal" rear gear set plus a powerful engine is one way to get good gas mileage. Of course, it didn't help that they had a bad case of NIH and the first US-built electronic overdrive automatics were flaming piles - but still, no excuse for not having a 5 speed manual available sooner. If you got a manual in a US car or even a US built kit/specialty car, it was likely to be a *4* speed, non-overdrive unit. Meanwhile, over in Europe and Asia, while the 4 speed automatic was also a bit problematic, it had had the bugs worked out by the time GM started shipping their first one, and the 5 speed OD manual was standard fare (as best I can tell) by the late 70s for Asian and Euro vehicles.

Instead, what the US makers did (and some Euro makers, especially those selling to the US market with automatic transmissions) was to continue fitting three speed autos and four speed manuals with a tall rear gear. My Series III XJ6 has that configuration - 3 speed non-overdrive auto, 2.88 rear gears. Early BMW 7's imported to the US have a similar setup; though both they and the Series III were available elsewhere in the world with a proper 5 speed gearbox. Such a setup never worked out well, even with a powerful engine.

Now Detroit wonders why we won't come back and buy their cars. Part of it is the lingering suspicion that once again they are not building in the latest technology and that we'd be wasting our money. Again.
 
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AltimaXX said:
Of course, there was the problem of Ford's FWD V6 powered coupe being better than it's V8 powered RWD muscle car...
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I don't know about "better", start with the little problem of wrong wheel drive.

The Probe was originally going to be a replacement for the Mustang, and pony car fans naturally howled at the notion of having their iconic rwd V8 coupe replaced with a front wheel drive Mazda.

The Probe saw little refinement until it was too late. Essentially it was then what the Mitsubishi Eclipse is now -- a chick car that's become too bloated and kind of lost the original point of the whole exercise. Doesn't anybody remember the 1st and 2nd generation Eclipse, the AWD turbos specifically?
 
Spectre said:
*All* the American makers were slow to move to overdrive transmissions; the American aftermarket/repackage/kit/builder market was even slower to adopt them once they'd come out.

For decades, *nobody* in Detroit or the satellite orbits around it seemed to figure out that overdrive transmissions plus a "normal" rear gear set plus a powerful engine is one way to get good gas mileage. Of course, it didn't help that they had a bad case of NIH and the first US-built electronic overdrive automatics were flaming piles - but still, no excuse for not having a 5 speed manual available sooner. If you got a manual in a US car or even a US built kit/specialty car, it was likely to be a *4* speed, non-overdrive unit. Meanwhile, over in Europe and Asia, while the 4 speed automatic was also a bit problematic, it had had the bugs worked out by the time GM started shipping their first one, and the 5 speed OD manual was standard fare (as best I can tell) by the late 70s for Asian and Euro vehicles.

Instead, what the US makers did (and some Euro makers, especially those selling to the US market with automatic transmissions) was to continue fitting three speed autos and four speed manuals with a tall rear gear. My Series III XJ6 has that configuration - 3 speed non-overdrive auto, 2.88 rear gears. Early BMW 7's imported to the US have a similar setup; though both they and the Series III were available elsewhere in the world with a proper 5 speed gearbox. Such a setup never worked out well, even with a powerful engine.

Now Detroit wonders why we won't come back and buy their cars. Part of it is the lingering suspicion that once again they are not building in the latest technology and that we'd be wasting our money. Again.
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Just another proof, a brand new Pontiac Solstice still comes with only a 5 speed manual gearbox, while the rest of the world are making 6 and 7 speeds. (Pontiac's automatics are still 4-speed by the way)
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
Just another proof, a brand new Pontiac Solstice still comes with only a 5 speed manual gearbox, while the rest of the world are making 6 and 7 speeds. (Pontiac's automatics are still 4-speed by the way)
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Same thing with Mazda 3. My cousin has a tiptronic 3 and I was surprised to learn that it's still a 4spd. AFAIK new Audi's get 6spd tiptronic and the new DSG are 7spd.

Although you can make a case for 5spd manuals for daily driving, 6spd tends to have pretty short gears so you end up shifting all the time.
 
I think the six gear boxes should be the same as the five gear boxes, just with an extra long sixth for cruising on autobahns. Like corvette does. I believe that is the case with VW for example. My Golf is a 5 speed, and my friends sharan seems to have pretty similar first 5 gears, but just an extra sixth.
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
Just another proof, a brand new Pontiac Solstice still comes with only a 5 speed manual gearbox, while the rest of the world are making 6 and 7 speeds. (Pontiac's automatics are still 4-speed by the way)
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...are you saying there's something with a 7-speed manual out there? If so, what is it?

Pontiac aren't the only manufacturer falling into the 5-speed trap. Auto Express knocked marks off the Peugeot 207 GTI and Kia cee'd for both having 5-speed manuals when the market now expects 6.
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
Just another proof, a brand new Pontiac Solstice still comes with only a 5 speed manual gearbox, while the rest of the world are making 6 and 7 speeds. (Pontiac's automatics are still 4-speed by the way)
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And yet reviews of the 6 speed mazda mx-5 vs the 5 speed solstice prefer the gearing and torque of the solstice as you end up going faster around the track since you aren't wasting a 1/2 second shifting each time you come out of a corner and go back into the next.

I believe the 5 speed EvO 8 and 9's were also faster than the 6 speeds because the engine made enough torque not to need it. More gears are mostly to make up for a lack of torque in engines. The exception being the vette that just uses 2 different over drives for high speed cruising..
 
thedguy said:
And yet reviews of the 6 speed mazda mx-5 vs the 5 speed solstice prefer the gearing and torque of the solstice as you end up going faster around the track since you aren't wasting a 1/2 second shifting each time you come out of a corner and go back into the next.

I believe the 5 speed EvO 8 and 9's were also faster than the 6 speeds because the engine made enough torque not to need it. More gears are mostly to make up for a lack of torque in engines. The exception being the vette that just uses 2 different over drives for high speed cruising..
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Exactly. # of gears isn't a pissing contest; if it works for the car then that's all that matters.

Of course, a 3-speed GM automatic derived from a tractor is a bit different...and I've always wanted to own a car with a manual 3-on-the-tree. I can guarantee it'd never get stolen without the necessity of a flatbed truck first. :rofl:
 
thedguy said:
And yet reviews of the 6 speed mazda mx-5 vs the 5 speed solstice prefer the gearing and torque of the solstice as you end up going faster around the track since you aren't wasting a 1/2 second shifting each time you come out of a corner and go back into the next.
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The standard MX-5 has a 5-speed. I would think that the MX-5 could make up for it's lack of torque with it's low weight. I remember that in early comparisons of the Solstice and MX-5 (which I'm assuming was the 5-speed), they were both pretty close in terms of track times.
 
CrazyRussian540 said:
Yeah... I've been trying to find a video of those in action everywhere online... anyone know where I can see 'em?
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I took as much of a look around Youtube as I could before IT CRASHED MY BROWSER FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME TODAY GROWL SNARL FROTH and found nothing. Anyone who paid $455,000 for their Vector in the first place would probably not have taken it out on those rare, rare days in California when it rains - good job, too, because that bizarre double-bladed wiper looks like it'd snap in half if it was called on to do its assigned job. It really needed one of those huge bus-style wipers as seen on the McLaren F1, for instance, just in case California ever saw any rain that year.

Anyway, here's some other videos that I managed to salvage from my browser history:

Watch this one for the true sound of the engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyC3XEXuJRM

"Looks like a Lamborghini, sounds like a blender" says one comment; don't mix your smoothies in it if you value your fingers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ATCVS6N0w

Lots of Vectors to the sound of a squealy guitar solo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1S82VEFuY
 
BlaRo said:
Exactly. # of gears isn't a pissing contest; if it works for the car then that's all that matters.

Of course, a 3-speed GM automatic derived from a tractor is a bit different...and I've always wanted to own a car with a manual 3-on-the-tree. I can guarantee it'd never get stolen without the necessity of a flatbed truck first. :rofl:
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Well for that the problem is more gear ratios then the number of gears I suspect. My car is horribly geared with 5spd for the engine that it uses. I fall out of power band in 2nd under full acceleration which adds at least 2 seconds to the 0-60 time. Having 6spd won't necessarily help if the gearing isn't changed enough to make the engine stay in the power band.
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
Just another proof, a brand new Pontiac Solstice still comes with only a 5 speed manual gearbox, while the rest of the world are making 6 and 7 speeds. (Pontiac's automatics are still 4-speed by the way)
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I'm torn on this; Lutz rationalized the use of a 5 speed for the small engines that are being used in the Solstace/Sky. It isn't like GM doesn't have 6 speeds in its parts bin. Being a skeptic sure I bet they had a bunch of 5 speeds laying around in a warehouse and/or they are cheaper. But will you not even allow the possibility that it's lighter or smaller? It would surely be ludicrous for a car like the Corvette ZR1 to have a 5 speed but on a limited HP car like the Solstace one could make an argument. Not to mention, I think I recall 5 speeds showing up on some non-GM new cars (thinking, I'll get back on that -- I think one of my lust objects the Hyundai Genesis coupe only has a 5 speed). I mean, if you want to get picky on the choice of a 5 speed over a 6 speed, then I'd like to get picky on cars that don't have LSD that should (looking at you, Boxster/Cayman and BWM Z8).

My 944 Turbo has a 5 speed (granted it's 23 years old) and it isn't any less fun to drive because of it. Having a 6 speed wouldn't make it any faster, it would just give a better gear spacing and probably a more efficient top gear for cruising.

If more gears = better, let's carry it to extremes -- do we want 18 speed gearboxes like an 18-wheeler? If 6 speeds are better than 5, then isn't 7 speeds better than 6, and 8 better than 7? While this is already happening in autos, it is making the H-pattern shift gate paradigm fall apart and helping to usher in the dreaded flappy paddles.

For that alone, I say let's be happy with 5 or 6 speeds; no more, no less.
 
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I never said that the 6 speed will make the Solstice faster. It will make it more economical though. AFAIK the fifth gear in the Solstice is not an overdrive gear, and it is a regular gear (the ratio was a figure around 1.0, but I'm not completely sure)
 
BlaRo said:
...and I've always wanted to own a car with a manual 3-on-the-tree. I can guarantee it'd never get stolen without the necessity of a flatbed truck first. :rofl:
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My project 68 Bronco is a 3-on-the-tree. I considered swapping it out for a 4 or 5 speed with a floor shifter, but the novelty of it made me decide to keep it. The best part of it is when people get confused by the floor shifter, column shifter and four pedals.
 
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