Power (bhp) vs Torque (lb foot)

Sir Stiggington

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I've searched, but can't find anything...
So can anybody explain the difference between power and torque?

From what I understand, power is what is developed when you run a car from idling to the red line and go through the gears. Torque is when you're driving at a given rpm, and suddenly put your foot down...is that about right? Care to explain?

Thanks :)
 
Torque = Acceleration
HP = Top Speed

Torque is what you feel pushing you back when you accelerate.

Torque is part of the basic specification of an engine: the power output of an engine is expressed as its torque multiplied by its rotational speed. Internal-combustion engines produce useful torque only over a limited range of rotational speeds (typically from around 1,000?6,000 rpm for a small car). The varying torque output over that range can be measured with a dynamometer, and shown as a torque curve. The peak of that torque curve usually occurs somewhat below the overall power peak. The torque peak cannot, by definition, appear at higher rpm than the power peak.

Understanding the relationship between torque, power and engine speed is vital in automotive engineering, concerned as it is with transmitting power from the engine through the drive train to the wheels. Typically power is a function of torque and engine speed. The gearing of the drive train must be chosen appropriately to make the most of the motor's torque characteristics.

Steam engines and electric motors tend to produce maximum torque close to zero rpm, with the torque diminishing as rotational speed rises (due to increasing friction and other constraints). Therefore, these types of engines usually have quite different types of drivetrains from internal combustion engines.

Torque is also the easiest way to explain mechanical advantage in just about every simple machine
If a force is allowed to act through a distance, it is doing mechanical work. Similarly, if torque is allowed to act through a rotational distance, it is doing work. Power is the work per unit time. However, time and rotational distance are related by the angular speed where each revolution results in the circumference of the circle being travelled by the force that is generating the torque. This means that torque that is causing the angular speed to increase is doing work and the generated power may be calculated as:

Power= Torque x Angular speed

On the right hand side, this is a scalar product of two vectors, giving a scalar on the left hand side of the equation. Mathematically, the equation may be rearranged to compute torque for a given power output.

In practice, this relationship can be observed in power stations which are connected to a large electrical power grid. In such an arrangement, the generator's angular speed is fixed by the grid's frequency, and the power output of the plant is determined by the torque applied to the generator's axis of rotation.

Consistent units must be used. For metric SI units power is watts, torque is newton-metres and angular speed is radians per second (not rpm and not revolutions per second).

Also, the unit newton-metre is dimensionally equivalent to the joule, which is the unit of energy. However, in the case of torque, the unit is assigned to a vector, whereas for energy, it is assigned to a scalar.

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Or: http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower

That took, 2 minutes on google.
 
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You two are James May's clones: you know how torque works!
I never understood, I have just read the quotes and didn't understand a word. But I don't care, if a certain car has 50kg/m of torque or more then I'm happy. (sorry about the metric units, that's how it's measured here. )
 
You two are James May's clones: you know how torque works!
I never understood, I have just read the quotes and didn't understand a word. But I don't care, if a certain car has 50kg/m of torque or more then I'm happy. (sorry about the metric units, that's how it's measured here. )

sounds like you are just too stupid. :rolleyes:

Clickey
 
You two are James May's clones: you know how torque works!
I never understood, I have just read the quotes and didn't understand a word. But I don't care, if a certain car has 50kg/m of torque or more then I'm happy. (sorry about the metric units, that's how it's measured here. )

I'm always amazed that the TG guys understand hp, but not torque. Torque is very straightforward, it is just a rotational force. Hp is the abstract one.
 
Easy way to figure it out. If you've ever fought trying to remove a nut or bolt and it's stuck, you're applying torque, even if it's not being moved. When you finally move it, that act of movement is HP.

Torque is just the amount of twisting force put on something. A person torques a door knob , a wrench/spanner, or giving a purple nurple.

The amount of time it takes you to twist the door knob far enough to open the door is a HP.
 
Torque is measured in either Nm or lb foot. (Torque is good to have when foot is on the floor at a standing start)
Power is measured in either Kw or hp. (Power is good to have when you wanna go really fast)

That's about as easily as I see/can explain it?
 
Torque is measured in either Nm or lb foot. (Torque is good to have when foot is on the floor at a standing start)
Power is measured in either Kw or hp. (Power is good to have when you wanna go really fast)

That's about as easily as I see/can explain it?

if you are simple-minded, think of it this way:

torque is acceleration speed
horsepower is top speed

stop light to stop light? you want torque, and gobs of it.
 
It's been explained pretty well, but I'll offer another simplistic way to look at it.

Torque is the amount of force.
Power is how fast the force is applied.

HP is basically the amount of force being applied multiplied by the RPM (that's the basic gist of it).

This is why diesels have tons and tons of torque and not much horsepower. They dont turn fast enough with their torque numbers to get the same kinds of tq/hp ratio stats as gasoline engines do.

They are both factors of each other so it's difficult to separate the two. The problem is that horsepower has the word "power" in it. Think of it as Torquepower vs Horsespeed. ;)

Here is the formula: HP = rpm x torque x 5252(constant)

American V8s dont spin as fast as a lot of european motors, but they still make around the same horsepower because tehy make SOOO much torque that when the torque is multiplied by the RPMs and the constant, that it comes out to the same. Also interesting is that dynamometers (Dynos) can only measure torque. They use the measurement of torque combined with computations about speed to actually compute horsepower.

So instead of trying to separate the two as separate things, understand that they are both factors in the same equation, literally. Horsepower is merely the amount of torque you have at a given RPM. The affects of having lots of horsepower just means you're making a lot of torque at high RPMs as opposed ot making a lot of torque at low RPMs.

Like Sonza mentioned, torque is the straightforward easy measurement, and horespower is like a bizarre rating you come to after you measure the torque. Torque is nothing more than teh amount of force being applied. It is what you feel when you step on the gas, always. You never feel horsepower. Horsepower is just a way to express torque in an abstract way that helps to figure out how fast the engine will move that torque. The closest you come to feeling horsepower is merely feeling the torque at higher RPMs, but even then ti's a stretch.
 
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Thanks for the explanations :)

The thing is though, reading the above stuff, torque should be directly proportional to power. But it isn't is it?
 
The thing is though, reading the above stuff, torque should be directly proportional to power. But it isn't is it?
It is, there's a specific factor in it.:

hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252
 
that's assuming 100% efficiency right?

No, the efficiency losses in the drivetrain are taken up in the form of a percentage of the torque. The harder you press on a set of gears, the more friction is generated, leading to a loss of torque. That loss of torque equates to a proportional loss in power at the wheels.

The HP equation is always "right" though. It's just that HP_wheels = HP_engine - losses.
 
Thanks for the explanations :)

The thing is though, reading the above stuff, torque should be directly proportional to power. But it isn't is it?

The thing is that different motors due to any number of different factors make peak torque and hp (Not at the same RPM) at different RPMs eg, some motors have a power band that's stronger in the low RPMs like an American smallblock V8, and some motorsh ave a power band that's stronger in the high RPMs like a Honda S2000.

Consider. A 1992 Camaro Z28 makes about 345 lb-ft of torque, and about 245hp. It makes peak torque at 3200 RPM, and peak horsepower at 4400 RPM from a 5.7 liter engine.

A small displacement Formula 1 car, lets assume an old 3 liter V10, cannot make the same amount of torque as a large displacement motor since the displacement disparity is VERY hard to make up. So how do you make up for it? You spin it to the moon. Becuase horsepower is basically torque x RPM. We can actually figure out how much peak torque an old F1 car because we have the formula. Assume the last V10 was around 950hp.

950hp = Torque(T) x (18,000RPM/5252)

950hp = T x 3.4273

950hp/3.4273 = 277 ft/lbs torque

That is not peak torque, but it is the torque produced at peak hp. By comparison the Z28 I referenced makes 292 ft/lbs of torque at peak hp using the same simplified equation. Given 345 ft/lbs peak 1200 RPMs earlier, 292 sounds like a reasonable number to me.

Also, in my research for this post I just found this interesting anecdotal account of someone who saw an old online video of the Cosworth V8 on the dyno.

They linked this picture also which is pretty interesting:
Cosworth_V8at20000_July2005.jpg


The number on the left is the torque number. 20002 is the RPMs.

The test "pull" was posted somewhere on the net a long time ago, and the "pull" was VERY brief... only a split second or so at 20,000 RPM, and then they backed it right back down, and very quickly.
As they were bringing it up through the rev range, you could see the torque figures rising...
At 13,769 the torque gauge was at 219.4, so... 575.1 HP
At 14,626 the torque gauge was at 268.5, so... 747.7 HP
At 16,036 the torque peaked at 278.0, so... 848.8 HP
At 17,003 the torque gauge was at 272.7, so... 882 HP
At 18,674 the torque gauge dropped to 259.9, so... HP peaked @ 924
At 19,179 the torque gauge dropped to 250.0, so... 912 HP
At 19,793 the torque gauge dropped to 231.5, so... 872 HP


Interesting stuff, no? The average sporty street car has as much or more torque as an F1 V8 with 900 hp. 8)

Torque is the easy number to measure. Torque is what you feel when you mash on the gas, regardless. You cannot feel horsepower because it is the result of torque put into a formula. The reason we measure horsepower is because of the impact it has on actual speed. Horsepower is speed, torque is force.
 
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Thanks, that cleared it up :)
 
Let see if I'm correct here..

Torque affects how fast you could accelerate, but the power affects effectively how fast you can speed up to.
 
Let see if I'm correct here..

Torque affects how fast you could accelerate, but the power affects effectively how fast you can speed up to.

Ignore the term "power". That's what trips everyone up. Horsepower isn't power as most laymen (including myself) think of it. Torque is the amount of force, which is intuitively what one thinks about when they think of power. Torque is the amount of force being created. The torque is the power you feel no matter how fast you are going.

It's easy to measure torque, but in order to measure horespower, you measure the amount of torque, and multiply it by how fast it's turning, and multiply it by a constant. HP = Torque x RPM x constant

This basically means that you cannot separate the two. Dont even try, because it's impossible. In layman's terms you can make silly rules of thumb and say a car with a lot of torque will accelerate faster than a car with very little torque, but it's just silly.

Horsepower is purely an academic term with no real basis in reality beyond a formula man invented for how fast "work" is done. Do not try to separate horsepower from torque, because horsepower is measured by an equation with the amount of torque in it. Torque is part of the horsepower formula.

What the equation really means, is that if you make a lot of torque at high RPMS, you'll make a lot of horsepower. That's it. HP is torque multiplied by how fast it's being moved. High torque x high speed = high Horsepower number.

The only reason we measure horsepower, since it's a purely academic theoretical number derived from silly obscure formulas, is because horsepower has an effect on track times, on how fast a car will go, even though it's a bizarre theoretical number pulled out of a weird equation. And when I say how fast, I mean track times.

You can make a TON of torque (literally 2000 lbs of torque), but if you cant move that ton of force very quickly, it will be very, very slow. Horsepower has more to do with speed on a track.

The key to remember though, is that with internal combustion engines in most cars, in order to make a lot of horsepower, they have to tune the engines in various ways to sacrifice torque in the low end of the RPM range. Think of the Honda S2000 motor that has a 9,000 RPM redline and stalls out at 5,000 RPMs because it doesnt make very mcuh torque there. It makes some torque at 9,000 RPMs, but since it's moving that torque so fast, it doesnt have to make as much of it to be a quick car. But some cars make a LOT of torque at high RPMs, and that's why they make so much horsepower. Think of Top Fuel dragsters here.

In a motor you drive around on the street, it's much more important to have a lot of torque than horsepower so that you dont have redline the engine every time you need to get the car moving. This is why American muscle cars built for drag racing with that crazy lopey cam sound and rough idle are usually trailer queens. They're very, very impractical to drive on the street and they're not very fun to drive on the street since you have to rev it to 5,000 RPM to get around. But once you get to 5,000 RPM that V8 makes all the torque you can handle and then some. And since it's making so much torque at high rpms, it makes quite a lot of horsepower.

Hopefully some of that made a little sense. All Im trying to say is that you cant say torque means you accelerate faster and hp means you have a better top speed. It may turn out that way in a lot of cases, but if you try to understand the nature of the horsepower formula and you will see that torque and horsepower are heavily-related numbers.
 
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