42% of Americans aren't "absolutely certain" that God exists.

[jeffy777]

However, there were generations of oral storytelling before the first bible manuscripts were written, if I recall my history correctly. That is when deviations from the original story would occur.

Well, as for the New Testament, many of Paul's letters (which make up the bulk of the Testament) were written in the first century and they don't contain stories, rather they were letters of instruction written to specific churches. Many scholars agree that the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written prior to 70 AD, which means that the disciples were still living.

It's interesting that none of the Gospels mention the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. Jesus had predicted that it would destroyed about 40 years after his ministry. It makes sense that the New Testament writers would have greatly emphasized this fulfillment of prophesy if they had recorded the Gospels after 70 AD.

This also is relevant in respect to the dating of the book of Acts which was written by Luke after the gospel of Luke. Acts also does not mention anything about 70 AD. Luke surely would have included it had he written Acts after the fact since his writings recorded the history of the first generation Christians centering around the city of Jerusalem.

As for attacking organized religion: If it were as simple as "you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want and we'll get along fine" I would, but that's not the way it works.

I was mainly talking about attacking people's belief in the Bible, not organized religion. I have many problems with that as well. Trust me, I'd love it if Christian's were more balanced in their views and sensitive in their dealings with non-believers. Telling someone they're going to hell is just the lamest approach, as we've discussed before. Fear is a terrible motive for becoming a Christian for starters. Those who are living a Christian life based on fear of going to hell are usually the ones who are the most annoying. Thankfully, I came to know God in such a way that my relationship with Him has nothing to do with "I better be good, or else".

Churches get involved in things that don't concern them, such as the private lives of citizens they see as immoral, or politics...........I don't want those people to go out and march or protest the lifestyles of people they have never met and know nothing about, simply because their 2,000 year old book says to.

I also agree that it's lame for Christians to bring their beliefs into politics. The Bible doesn't promote this or instruct us to do things like rally against gay rights. Again, this comes from misunderstandings of what Jesus really stood for. He never led demonstrations or tried to get his ideas passed into legislation. Instead, He spent his time showing compassion to people that most well-to-do Christians wouldn't even allow inside their churches.

But you know what? There are really great people out there that are followers of what Christ really taught. Yes, they are few and far between these days, and no, they aren't 100% perfect, but they definitely aren't out there waiving signs that say "God hates fags" and they aren't telling non-believers what they can and can't do.

I guess what I'm saying is that next time you think about dismissing Christianity as a complete farce and lumping all Christian's together for a bashing session, please remember that there are compassionate/caring/loving people who are following the path of Jesus who would give you the shirt off of their back in a heartbeat, and yet they're very "down-to-earth". If you don't know anyone like that, I really wish you did because their actually are Christians like that.

If religion really were about acceptance, love and charity I would be all for it, but it's not, that's only half the story. The other half is about what bad things it's ok to do to your fellow man and when you can get away with it.

Yeah, I can't speak for all religions, that's for sure, nor will I defend them. I can only speak of my own relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with me getting away with anything. Thankfully, I'm not familiar with the half dealing with "what bad things it's ok to do to your fellow man".....

That being said, I value our discussions, you have educated me about several aspects of the bible and theology I didn't know about before, and I value knowledge. Contrary to what you may think, I do respect you and I appreciate every post you make that criticizes or points out flaws in my arguments. I think it's through debates like this that we can begin to understand one another better. We may never entirely agree, but by remaining open to criticism we can see where our own reasoning is unsound and can examine why we believe what we do.

I respect your views too. Sometimes I forget that a person's frustrations against religion have nothing to do with me personally

 

[zenkidori]

I also agree that it's lame for Christians to bring their beliefs into politics. The Bible doesn't promote this or instruct us to do things like rally against gay rights. Again, this comes from misunderstandings of what Jesus really stood for. He never led demonstrations or tried to get his ideas passed into legislation. Instead, He spent his time showing compassion to people that most well-to-do Christians wouldn't even allow inside their churches.

But you know what? There are really great people out there that are followers of what Christ really taught. Yes, they are few and far between these days, and no, they aren't 100% perfect, but they definitely aren't out there waiving signs that say "God hates fags" and they aren't telling non-believers what they can and can't do.

a great illustration of both why many people have an aversion to christians and christianity, and also why thier beef lies only with those people, and not the religion.

 

[///M]

The issue shouldn't be about whether or not one's holy book is the same as it has always been. I'm sure many old texts have remained unchanged, doesn't mean they were holy in any way or inspired by god. The problem is religion itself, and what it asks of people. It doesn't matter if you do or don't believe in your whole holy book, at the end of the day, your holy book contains racism, bigotry, misogyny, and just general xenophobia, and it orders its readers to act on these beliefs violently. In any civilized society, the bible, the quran, the upanishads, you name it, should be shunned as bad literature that is as tasteless as a KKK manual. Now I'm not saying they should be banned, but you wouldn't hand a KKK manual to a kid and force your beliefs on them, would you?

I think everyone should give this movie a look.

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=CQ8_bIji7gQ[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=o4xIi-TwY-Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[jeffy777]

Ah yes, //M: the king off religious generalizations. I don't know any Christian who wants to kill anyone. Yes, there are some around the world I'm sure who are misguided, but I don't know any. It's a terrible mistake to lump all religious people together. Yes, there are religious extremists, but they are not the majority. Please get this through your head.

And it's lame to say that all Christians promote racism, ,bigotry, etc.....Some of the highest leaders in my personal church for instance are women and black people, so that shoots your generalization out of the water. When properly understood, the New Testament promotes none of the things you mentioned.

Richard Dawkins is just as guilty of generalizing. All religious faith is not dangerous nor does it discourage critical thinking (in fact, my faith encourages me to analyze things even more, instead of merely unquestionably ingesting everything a college proffessor tells me, for example). The guy Dawkins is unbalanced in his views: much too quick to stereotype and generalize.

 

[///M]

I don't care about Christians, I'm talking about Christianity and whether or not there is a need for it and other religions to be spread to the next generations. There were many, many Nazis, but not all of them committed the Holocaust. And like Christianity, I'm sure Nazism has some good message somewhere in there, it doesn't make it right to teach your kid to be a Nazi.

 

[jeffy777]

I don't care about Christians, I'm talking about Christianity and whether or not there is a need for it and other religions to be spread to the next generations. There were many, many Nazis, but not all of them committed the Holocaust. And like Christianity, I'm sure Nazism has some good message somewhere in there, it doesn't make it right to teach your kid to be a Nazi.

Comparing common Christian beliefs to Nazism is simply ridiculous. I know you're not equating, but still, it's preposterous.

Anyway, Parents are free to teach their kids what they feel is right and theirs nothing dangerous about the teachings of Christ. We've discussed this before. You're beating a dead horse. All you ever do in these religious threads is say the same things over in over. It's pretty pointless, really. We know you have a problem with religion. You don't have to keep saying it repeatedly.

We've pretty well discussed this topic to death....

 

[///M]

Again, I'm not comparing common Christian belief. I'm comparing Christianity as whole.

For my country at least, the only way to move forward involves one of two things, severe reformation of the religion of the masses, Islam, or a surge of secularism and rationalism like in Turkey. Islam, like Christianity, has good messages sprinkled here and there, and has its sensible, good followers that don't act on the violence. Regardless, the small number of extremists and the vast number of apathetic followers who are in denial continue fucking up society.

Christianity does it here in north America to homosexuals and women. Save the stories of Christians that accept homosexuals as normal people, the majority of people fueling the debate on the right are doing so out of faith in religion. It's the same thing with abortion and stem cell research. Using Richard Dawkin's metaphor of religion being a virus, we're still infected in the third world, but we can afford the drugs to diminish the symptoms.

 

[jeffy777]

Christianity does it here in north America to homosexuals and women. Save the stories of Christians that accept homosexuals as normal people, the majority of people fueling the debate on the right are doing so out of faith in religion. It's the same thing with abortion and stem cell research. Using Richard Dawkin's metaphor of religion being a virus, we're still infected in the third world, but we can afford the drugs to diminish the symptoms.

I can't speak for Islam and I think it's wrong to lump all religions together the way Dawkins does. As for Christianity: Yeah, there are those who are unbalanced in their Christian views, such as those who rally against homosexuals, but that doesn't mean that we should throw out Christianity as a whole. One of the great things about America for example is that people have the freedom to believe in God. It's sad when religious people try to infringe on the freedoms of others, but the majority of Christian people aren't involved in that. For instance, I don't know one single Christian who goes to anti-gay demonstrations. The Christians in my church are peaceful people that don't seek to get laws passed or blow up those who disagree with them. And as I said, there are women leaders in our church. I don't know any Christian women who are being oppressed.

I think it's a mistake to lump all of Christianity together. The difference between the Catholic Church and some Protestants is astounding. Then among Protestants, there is so much diversity. Some churches are very balanced, others are close minded and bigoted. So to generalize that all Christians believe the same and act the same is just ridiculous.

 

[///M]

Stop bringing up Christians. I'm not making this about Christians, this is about the Christian doctrine, and all other doctrines, and the need for extreme reformation. You don't believe in everything in the Bible, or at least you don't act on everything in the Bible, regardless, the hate is still there. What do you suggest should be done? Should we not promote secularism and rationalism rather than blind faith? Or would editing the Bible make it better? You and others like you are great citizens, I'm not doubting that, but you are part of an organization that needs to be fixed. Can you really say most Christians speak out against the Pope's refusal of supporting the use of condoms to help stop the spread of AIDS in Africa? Do most Christians speak out against the hate spewed out to the masses at night on TV by evangelicals? The people doing the bad things are the minority, but the majority is not doing anything about it.

 

[No Boss]

///M

Thanks for those vids man, they were an interesting watch. I respect Dawkins a lot, although sometimes I wish he wouldn't get so aggressive in some of his interviews with religious 'high-er ups'. Great videos nonetheless, I just wish I didn't watch them in reverse order. haha

 

[zenkidori]

Just because a few misguided people who call themselves christians or muslims or jews or whatever act violently does not mean there is a problem with the religion itself. Those people, according to thier own religions, are going straight to hell. They are simply misguided people with a lot of hate, rage and fear and use religion as thier excuse. If religion did not exist, they'd find some other scapegoat, like movies, or video games, or philosophy or national pride or race or whatever.

man is not an entirely logical creature, we are not vulcans, we are spiritual beings. whether you find your spirituality thru religion, philosophy, relationships or whatever, that's your choice.

to talk of getting rid of religion like it's some sort of plague just illustrates a profound lack of understanding, tolerance and indeed intellect on your part. I pity you.

 

[jeffy777]

Stop bringing up Christians. I'm not making this about Christians, this is about the Christian doctrine

That's contradictory. You're the one who was talking about homosexuals and women being oppressed by Christians, so I responded by saying I don't know anyone who is doing so, and I know a lot of Christians. Yes, there are some who are doing so, but there are also tons of people who aren't religious who don't like gay people and mistreat women. There's bad people everywhere, religious and non. For example, my real dad didn't have an ounce of religion in him, but he treated my mom like crap. If there was no such thing as religion, people would still do bad things to gays and women.

My religion is centered around the New Testament, and as I said before, when understood correctly, there are no commands for Christians to hate anyone.

As for speaking out against wrongs, there are tons of churches and ministries that are doing so (and it's not like there's that many evangelical shows focused on speaking out against gays, etc.). As for the Pope, I think governments need to put pressure on the him about the situation in Africa since unfortunately he won't listen to Christian organizations as he sees himself above them all (the Bible doesn't teach against condoms). But there are a lot of Protestant missionary groups distributing condoms and educating the people of Africa about AIDS. There are good things being done.

///M

Thanks for those vids man, they were an interesting watch. I respect Dawkins a lot, although sometimes I wish he wouldn't get so aggressive in some of his interviews with religious 'high-er ups'. Great videos nonetheless, I just wish I didn't watch them in reverse order. haha

He's way too stereotypical and generalizing though. Not balanced at all. He's crazy in his lumping. And people get upset about Christians speaking out and wanting to share their message, but this guy is quite zealous in his proclamation against religion and call to Atheism. He's suggesting that people who are religious are ignorant. Quite condescending and closeminded of him. The guy is just as arrogant as any preacher I've ever heard.

 

[No Boss]

///M

Thanks for those vids man, they were an interesting watch. I respect Dawkins a lot, although sometimes I wish he wouldn't get so aggressive in some of his interviews with religious 'high-er ups'. Great videos nonetheless, I just wish I didn't watch them in reverse order. haha

He's way too stereotypical and generalizing though. Not balanced at all. He's crazy in his lumping. And people get upset about Christians speaking out and wanting to share their message, but this guy is quite zealous in his proclamation against religion and call to Atheism. He's suggesting that people who are religious are ignorant. Quite condescending and closeminded of him. The guy is just as arrogant as any preacher I've ever heard.

Oh I agree, he does do a lot of stereotyping and generalizing when it comes to his critiques of religions. But all you have to do is realize they are a generalization, not retain that info, and you're fine. And I do agree that he is just as outspoken (nuts) against the people he is accusing of being outspoken (nuts).

It's a shame too, I think a lot more people would respect him if he was more gentlemanly in his manner of critiquing.

 

[jayjaya29]

I'm reading Dawkins book right now and I haven't come across many generalizations. Sure he is commenting on religion on a whole, but how else would you tackle all the religions at once?

 

[jeffy777]

All religions are not the same. As I've already said, there's soooooo much diversity just within Christianity alone.

 

[Blind_Io]

All religions are not the same. As I've already said, there's soooooo much diversity just within Christianity alone.

Not really, it's all fundamentally the same there are just differences in the little things, like wearing silly hats or enforcing the no meat on Friday thing. Once you get past these little details it's fundamentally the same religion.

Now if you want to talk about the differences between Taoism and Christianity...

 

[jeffy777]

Not really, it's all fundamentally the same there are just differences in the little things, like wearing silly hats or enforcing the no meat on Friday thing. Once you get past these little details it's fundamentally the same religion.

I assume you're joking. Otherwise, it just shows that you don't know all that much about Christianity.

 

[Blind_Io]

No, I'm not joking, let's look at it.

They all believe in a monotheistic god.
They all use the same holy book
They all think Jesus is the son of god
They all believe in the immaculate conception
They all believe that Jesus died for our sins and was reborn

Once you get beyond the basic fundamentals it's just details, like formality of the service, requiring penance or confession or the cannonization of saints. All that is just disagreements about procedure, the basic structure of belief has more similarities than differences. That's why they are called denominations rather than religions. Christianity is a religion, Catholicism is a denomination.

 

[jeffy777]

I strongly disagree. The difference between Catholics and some Protestants is staggering. Yes, there are some common beliefs, but you have to remember that the Protestants protested and rejected Catholocism because they thought of the Pope as a form of antichrist because of his teachings and the claims of the Catholic church that strongly contradict the Bible (just a couple examples: the Pope claims to have the power to forgive sins when the Bible says that only God can do that, as well as praying to Mary or "saints", which is consider blasphemy by most protestants...there are MANY more examples, as well as the fact that the Catholics killed millions of Christians who they considered heretics). The Catholics claim to be God's only church and salvation can be found no where else they say, while Protestants generally agree that God has his people all over the place. There are varying degrees of "protesting" among Protestants. And Catholics do not use the same Bible as Protestants. For instance they erroneously changed the 10 Commandments in their Bible to fit the commands of the medieval Pope.

And among protestants, there is a wide assortment of variations. For example, some teach that people who aren't saved go to hell for eternity, others don't (a HUGE difference which totally changes one's view of God's character). That's just one of many examples.

So say what you will about all Christian churches being the same, but sorry: you're wrong. It's like saying all governments all the same just because they have some similar laws in common.

 

[Blind_Io]

There are more similarities than differences is my point. Certainly more than say, Islam and Taoism. When it comes to the big stuff, God, creation, Jesus, virgin birth and all that they are all on the same page. Yes, the Catholic church is probably the farthest removed, but that is just one sect of Christianity, look at how close all the Protestants are.

I will concede the Catholic church has gone it's own way, but it still shares quite a bit with the other Christian sects, far more than it does with any other religion.