"Godlessness" and Politics

Blind_Io

Blind_Io

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A recent poll in the US indicated that most Americans distrust Atheists more thany any other minority group

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=rel...ewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find
http://ryz.gnn.tv/headlines/8262/America_Hates_Atheists

Atheists have been described as immoral, criminal, sinners, homosexuals, pedophiles, and various other titles. Why is it then that per capita, there are fewer Atheists in prison than any other group?

http://www.holysmoke.org/hs02/unfit.htm
http://www.lacarte.org/freedom/thought/atheism/
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/prisondo.htm

As this case shows, many prison and court systems rely heavily on religious programs to releive over crowding and instill morals into convicts.
http://www.plastic.com/article.html;sid=05/12/15/08340064;mode=nested

Talking points:

Do Athiests have a moral code?
Are they more likly to break the law, and if so, why are there no numbers to indicate this?
Why is it that when someone's lack of belief is revealed it can can overrule any of their assets, such as experience or intelligence?
Are Athiests a persecuted or neglected minority?
Does fear of retaliaton of judgement keep Athiests from speaking their minds or beliefs?

My reason for bringing this up, is that recent new items and conversations on other sites, like FARK, have me thinking about this topic. Many of these comments and ideas I listed I have either heard myself or heard from others.

I'm not going to say what my personal beliefs are quite yet, although I may reveal them later.
 
As a human being, I find it the idea that we are savage and have no morals and that we need religion to fix us insulting. I don't see rape and murder on the rise without religion.

As a believer in secularism and it being a key in any true democracy, I don't think any member of the government should be allowed to be a 'defender of the faith'. I think secularism allows countries to move forward faster. Most theocratic nations are backwards and underdeveloped.

Regarding morality overall, I don't think that the largest religions in the world are good sources of it.

Here in a large city in Canada and in a generally accepting environment, I feel that atheists face no discrimination. It's probably very different in Jesusland down south and out in the midwest of Canada.
 
That's something I don't get. I'm an intelligent and rational human being that feels no need for supersticion or believing in some "higher power/being/solar body/animal" whatever its name or base-religion may be.

If you look at history and evolution, you would assume that this is the next logical step in evolving. Nowadays we don't need unfathomable powers/beings/solar bodies/animals anymore as "final explanations" and - alomst - "fallback scenraios" that we can turn to when facing a problem or a crisis.

"Oh there's nothing we can do...its was Gods will" [Ed.: note that I use God since I was raise roman catholic...not to express any specific statement against christian believes.] It's - for me - a very easy and convenient way of wiggling oneself out of something...just blame a higher being.

On the other hand, if someone wishes to believe and feels the urge or need for having a strong religious believe system, I'm fine with that. It's his/her choice.

I thought we had gotten rid of all that (religion vs. religion, all vs. atheists etc). In the 18th centruy! Kant said ?Aufkl?rung ist der Ausgang des Menschen aus seiner selbst verschuldeten Unm?ndigkeit. Unm?ndigkeit ist das Unverm?gen, sich seines Verstandes ohne Anleitung eines anderen zu bedienen." (in english: "Enlightenment is when a person leaves behind a state of immaturity and dependence for which he himself was responsible. Immaturity and dependence are the inability to use one's own intellect without the direction of another." I've taken this from wiki rather than translate it, sorry.).

Furthermore, one of the basics of every democratic state is a clear separation of the state and the church (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_State ).
 
Morals and religion don't have to come as a pair. It is true that strongly religious people usually have morals but non-religious people can also have morals.
 
Funny that the humanist morals which I presume many atheists in the "modern world" subscribe, are based on christianity :)

Anyway, I consider myself being an atheist too, but I have quite the same morals like your standard christian. I believe that I'm intelligent and conscious enough to consider which "rules" I should live by.

It is very possible though that those morals of which I think are inherent to myself, are just the remainders of my upbringing, which is in its turn the remainder of centuries and centuries of strong catholicism in my area.
So I don't blame christianity at all, only the people who are too fanatically in it... And there seem to be quite a lot of those.

After all, the morals of christianity are for a great part the basic rules a civilisation has to follow in order to survive. Civilisation needs rules to live by in order to retain, and I believe religion is just one of the ways to imply those rules on the people.
 
Re: "Godlessness" and Politics

Blind_Io said:
Atheists have been described as immoral, criminal, sinners, homosexuals, pedophiles, and various other titles.
Click to expand...
I can't believe this anachronism hasn't died from old age yet. Who did they call, nursing homes? 2,000 people seems like too small a sample to me, anyway.

As an atheist, I haven't seen any persecution from anybody (well, in 2nd grade there was this one kid who tried to convince me that I should believe in Jesus..."THEY STUCK THORNS! IN HIS HANDS!"), and I'd like to think that in the 21st century that we humans have advanced past that. Judging by the conflict in the Middle East, I doubt it.

Do atheists need religion to tell us what to do? I'd like to think that people can think for themselves.
 
Re: "Godlessness" and Politics

BlaRo said:
Blind_Io said:
2,000 people seems like too small a sample to me, anyway.
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Yeah, 2,000 people is a small number, hence a lame study. Atheists are not being persecuted in the US.
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This of course, leads to the quesion about god in government. When one is sworn into office, s/he swears to god to uphold the laws of the nation or state. When one testifies s/he swears to go to tell the truth. The words "In God We Trust" [sic] is printed on our money. Recently a congressman introduced a law that would require the display of the 10 commandments in all courts. Bush has given billions to "faith-based" services.

Just a few things to think about.

Atheists have been described as immoral, criminal, sinners, homosexuals, pedophiles, and various other titles.
Click to expand...

One would have hoped that notions like this would have passed, but these are all names I have personally been called

Of course I'm not saying that Athiests are having bricks thrown through their windows, but there are certainly people out there who think of Atheists as second class citizens. Some states still have laws on the books, even in their state constitutions, banning Atheists from testifying in court or holding public office.

Many years ago, a rabid Theist (I'm not going to say what religion, because he was obviously not representing the ideals of his religion well) got in my face when he tried to impose his dogma on me and I revealed that I did not follow his religion. When I mentioned I was a Atheist he immediately began demonizing me and telling me that I was fundamentally immoral. After a few minutes of listening to him, I'd had enough and struck back with logic. "You claim that without religion as a moral guide people become cold-hearted killers and rapists - yet I have done neither. You, however live in fear of some cosmic spanking or cookie from the Big Beard in the Sky and that is your motivation to do what's right. I do what's right because it's right, you do what's right out of fear. So between the two of us who is the more moral? The man who does what's right out of selfishness or the man who does what's right and expects no divine reward?"

That shut him up for about 15 seconds while his brain overheated, then, like someone hitting the reset button he started over.

I'm not taking a side on this one, I just wanted to spark conversation. I certainly don't feel persecuted, however there are certainly times when I am wary of revealing my personal take on theology because of the reaction I tend to get.
 
"You claim that without religion as a moral guide people become cold-hearted killers and rapists - yet I have done neither. You, however live in fear of some cosmic spanking or cookie from the Big Beard in the Sky and that is your motivation to do what's right. I do what's right because it's right, you do what's right out of fear. So between the two of us who is the more moral? The man who does what's right out of selfishness or the man who does what's right and expects no divine reward?"
Click to expand...

RESPECT :thumbup:
 
bone said:
"You claim that without religion as a moral guide people become cold-hearted killers and rapists - yet I have done neither. You, however live in fear of some cosmic spanking or cookie from the Big Beard in the Sky and that is your motivation to do what's right. I do what's right because it's right, you do what's right out of fear. So between the two of us who is the more moral? The man who does what's right out of selfishness or the man who does what's right and expects no divine reward?"
Click to expand...

RESPECT :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Wow.... yeah that quote is awesome. Right Click, Save As.

Blind_Io said:
A recent poll in the US indicated that most Americans distrust Atheists more thany any other minority group
Click to expand...

I like your thread, and I just wanted to offer up this video to anyone who is bored and wants to watch it. It's from Morgan Spurlock's (Guy who did "Supersize Me") 30 Days, and in this episode an Atheist goes to live with an UBER-religious family.

This is just a clip where the Atheist family takes the Christian out to eat with some Atheist friends for a chat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jjuY-r4WbA
 
Blind_Io said:
Many years ago, a rabid Theist (I'm not going to say what religion, because he was obviously not representing the ideals of his religion well) got in my face when he tried to impose his dogma on me and I revealed that I did not follow his religion. When I mentioned I was a Atheist he immediately began demonizing me and telling me that I was fundamentally immoral. After a few minutes of listening to him, I'd had enough and struck back with logic. "You claim that without religion as a moral guide people become cold-hearted killers and rapists - yet I have done neither. You, however live in fear of some cosmic spanking or cookie from the Big Beard in the Sky and that is your motivation to do what's right. I do what's right because it's right, you do what's right out of fear. So between the two of us who is the more moral? The man who does what's right out of selfishness or the man who does what's right and expects no divine reward?"

That shut him up for about 15 seconds while his brain overheated, then, like someone hitting the reset button he started over.

I'm not taking a side on this one, I just wanted to spark conversation. I certainly don't feel persecuted, however there are certainly times when I am wary of revealing my personal take on theology because of the reaction I tend to get.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the guy was obviously mis-guided and his appraoch was terrible to say the least, and it's too bad that folks like this give religion a bad name.

I am a Christian, but not out of fear, but love. People who serve God out of fear live a misrable existence. I also believe that a real Christian would never ridicule someone for not believing in God, and would certainly not resort to name-calling. I respect and sincerely care about people no matter what they believe, and whether they return the respect or not.

At the same time, I've been called all sorts of names because of my beliefs as well, so it goes both ways. Atheists bash Christians and vise versa. It would be great if everyone would refrain from bashing on people for their beliefs, regardless of what they are. Unfortunately, humans of every persuasion have a terrible tendancy to look down on anyone who doesn't agree with their views. It's tragic, but true.

And I personally don't think of the US as a Christian nation. Many claim the name, but very few actually live as followers of Jesus.

I also don't agree with the Chrisrians in that youtube video. We shouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money for a number of reasons. One reason being to respect everyone's views.

So not all Christians are closeminded and antagonistic, and I know the same is true for Atheists as well. We can't lump everyone into broad categories based on the actions/views of some.
 
jeffy777,

If only more Christians were like you. Not many people can get past the idea of religion as a club. I was actually raised a Methodist, so I'm no stranger to faith. The problem is that many people see religion as being in a "right" club. They chose the "right" religion and therefore other religions must be "wrong." They get together with other people in the club once a week and congratulate each other for making the "right" choice.

I know not everyone thinks this way, but it is a common pattern in many of the churches I attended all over the US (we moved alot).

I don't have a problem with people who choose to believe in a god, but I do have a problem when that faith starts getting in the way of science. The current ban on stem cell research is a prime example. If it were not for the fanatical God Squad telling eveyone that a cluster of cells is "sacred" we would not have this ban on potential life-saving technology and techniques. I just get frustrated sometimes because I look back through history as the scientific discoveries religion has attempted to quash, and realize that people are still trying to repress science in the name of superstision.

As I said, I was not always an Atheist, at one point I actually considered joining the clergy (good thing I didn't do that). I started looking critically at the world around me and the scientific and theological explanations. I realized that religion's fundamental purpose was to alleviate stress and uncertainty in it's followers while providing a simple answer to life's great existential quandries. Primitive gods answered questions about the natual world "Why does the water flow?" "Because the water god makes it flow." "Why is there lightning?" "That's Zeus throwing thunderbolts at people" (Interestingly, Zeus handled the lighting but had to sub-contract for the thunder). As our understanding of science expanded, the realm of gods shrank. We now understand things like gravity, and electro-static discharges, and don't believe that it's the water-god or Zeus anymore. So really, when you look at all the gods that mankind has summoned over the millenia to explain away natual phenomena - we are all Atheist, only Atheists go one god farther than the rest. Religion now explains only the things that science may never explain: Why are we here? and What happens when we die? These are the questions that cause incredible stress for so many people. Existential Psychologists call it the fear on non-existance. Well, the solution for that is simple: you never really die.

This sounds like a good idea, and it works well, but religious leaders of old saw a chance here to control the behavior of the population. It wasn't good enough to just say "you go to another place" they had to make it a carrot and a stick. "If you follow these rules and fulfill your place in god's plan you go to heaven. If you buck the system then you go to hell." Of course the holy-man was the conduit for god and he could tell you what god wanted you to do, and you'd better do it.. or else! Suddenly religion stops being about faith and answering existential questions and becomes about controlling the thinking and behavior of populations.

From here it's only a small leap to say "we are the 'right' religion, so they are the 'wrong' religion - go kill them, your god commands it! Don't worry if you die, you will be rewarded in heaven." Now it becomes easy to get people to do things like strap bombs to themselves and walk in to crowded discos.

I have a fundamental problem with religion. Faith I'm fine with.
I know that religions are supposedly based on love and caring and all that, but why is it that so many of the bloodiest and longest conflicts in the world have been fought over religion.

"Do you beleive in god?"
"No" - gets stabbed

"Do you believe in god?"
"Yes"
"My god?"
"No" - gets stabbed

You'll never see an Atheist blow up a bus because some people don't agree with his view of the Universe. I just find it ironic that religion, the very thing that is supposed to give us all moral guidelines is the very thing that causes the most gruesome killings in the history of mankind.

If you don't believe me, go check out King Olaf Trygvason. The problem lies not with religion, but with people. All the major religions teach acceptance and tolerance, but for some reason people can't handle that. If their "club" is right, and offers salvation then what about all the other clubs? Shouldn't they have the chance for salvation too? It's obvious that my club is right, so they must have been lead astray by dark forces. We must go save them for their own good!

People can't handle the idea that everyone can be right. If everyone is right then there's nothing that makes one club different from the rest, and then there's no point in having a club at all. This is the difference between faith and religion. In faith you don't have this problem, its the combination of faith and dogmatic law that causes difficulty.

So good for faith, more power to you.
Dogmatic law needs work.
 
I am Christian, and my wife is atheist. I love her no matter what, I do not quote Bible verses when she does something "wrong". In fact, I like it, because I get the both the practical and spirtual sides of life.

Myself I believe that if God wanted us to praise him/her/it all day, we would have bigger butts and smaller brains so we can sit in church. But instead we have a brain thats yet to be untapped, you see? And that is the greatest gift God has given us, intelligence and free will. I believe you end in your life and spend eternity in one place or another based on your deeds in life, not how much money you contributed to the church.

I wont try to convince anyone to join my religion, because I feel everyone has a path, a destiny that only they can fulfill, and whether or not religion is a part of the quasion is something the indivdual must choose.

So, I guess if you want to pigeonhole me, call me...Ishmael. Kidding. no, call me a "Smart Christian". :)
 
CyberMonkey said:
Funny that the humanist morals which I presume many atheists in the "modern world" subscribe, are based on christianity :)
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And Christianity is based on Judaism which is based on the religions and myths of Mesopotamia and Judea. Hammurabi's Code, for example is a source of Mosaic Law. Rather than saying humanist morals are based on Christianity, it would be more appropriate to say morals in general are part of us. I think that we all would know right from wrong if it weren't for religion.
 
jeffy777 said:
And I personally don't think of the US as a Christian nation. Many claim the name, but very few actually live as followers of Jesus.

I also don't agree with the Chrisrians in that youtube video. We shouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money for a number of reasons. One reason being to respect everyone's views.
Click to expand...

As an Atheist, I actually enjoy having "In God We Trust" on our currency, because, if you look at what we and other nations choose to put on currency, money is a reflection of the national identity. I believe the slogan is not an endorsement of a god, but rather the statement that "We" (the citizens of the US) trust in God, a statement which is overwhelmingly true. I also think it is a reflection of our history and founders, and so should be preserved.
For me, it is just plain silly to make the assertion that nothing on a piece of paper you carry around should contradict your beliefs. If that were true, it would make as much sense for me protest the placement of the Whitehouse on the 20 because I disagree with Bush and shouldn't be forced to carry the symbol that represents him around.

I think that until Aethists actually face some sort of persecution beyond general disagreement and argument (something like a brick through the window), us claiming any kind of victimhood is as farcical as Democrats claiming to be a persecuted minority.
 
///M said:
As a human being, I find it the idea that we are savage and have no morals and that we need religion to fix us insulting. .
Click to expand...

To a certain degree it's a matter of nature vs. nurture. Just being exposed to a certain social setting/behavior goes a long way in determining what may become of any given individual. And I'd say this is evidenced by feral children, who without such contact are considered "wild"....of course that could just be a learned behavior from an animal.

Without some kind of rearing, is there something inside humans to keep them on the up and up?

I dunno. Just something interesting that came into my mind....
 
I consider myself an agnostic, which is not the same as atheism. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism )
Basically it's the "I don't know" position towards the existance of God(s).
(I was raised as Roman Cathlic though.)

Further more, there's three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way. :p
 
I would imagine the average atheist and the average Christian/Muslim/Jew/Hindu/whatever act fairly similar, minus periodic church masses/temple visits/etc. at least around where I live.
 
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