Production GT-R SMASHES 'ring record.

[Ford Prefect]

Well yes, the ring won?t prepare your car for the drive to the grocery store, and there is obviously no way of testing a car that will take every possible thing into account that the car will ever encounter in real life.

But if your main reason for buying a car is that you want to have fun with it, be it on the track or just the lovely little b-road that just happens to be between the place where you sleep and the place where you work, then the ring is about as good a test as you will find. Again, it was intended as a test track.

 

[thedguy]

Also I have to say, what's the problem with electronic assists? Yes you can stuff torsen diffs between all the wheels and axles and it will achieve the same exact thing as an electronically controlled diff but you will add alot more weight.

How does removing a bunch of wiring, sensors, and computers ADD weight?

Nothing wrong with that; that's all I'm doing .


Nothing at all. Like I said in my original post that got flyingfridge so up in arms, in the GTR they're integrated seamlessly into the driving experience. That Nissan integrated these controls in a manner that seems so unobtrusive to the driving experience is a real testament to the talent they've got working for them.

It's just a personal issue; I prefer old cars. I like working on stuff myself, not taking it to a dealership. And while I'd love to own a GTR, (or a Z06, or a 911), I think I'd enjoy something like an old Triumph sports car or a Caterham more. My definition of a "drivers car" is just something that features pretty much power nothing, something that if you have a close call in, you know it was your judgement that saved your ass ... not a computer that lessened braking force on a wheel that was about to lock or pulled power away from a spinning tire. I'm not saying you can't have a whole lot of fun in something 'modern', you undoubtedly can, this is just my opinion.

Simply put you like that warm and fuzzy feeling inside you get when YOU achieved the fastest lap on a track, or YOU pulled that perfect power slide (even if it was just luck), or YOU managed to slip the clutch just right to get that 1.5 60' time. This is precisely why I like cars that have purely mechanical grip. I don't mind the electronics saving my ass, but thats the extent of it.

No one driving a Fairmont has ever been told "that fast lap was all because of the car."

 

[Meio]

It's a great fit of engineering but a buying decision for any car should be more along the lines of "Can I live with it every day?", no point in getting an uber car that you will drive once a year on a sunny weekend and rest of the time drive something down to earth and practical.

You realise that some people decide to buy a car for similar reasons that some people buy ATVs or RIBs? Their only criteria is raw performance and sense of speed (and possibly price seeing as it will usually be a second car) and fun. The only comfort criteria would be that has a second seat the missus can get into for those occasions where an attempt is made to show her why there is ?30k worth of luxury money sitting the garage most of the time.

 

[jackernapes]

What kind of a pompous asshole would someone have to be to shun a car for being anything other than RWD. It sounds to me like those people are in fact not true driving purists but are in fact dickholes who form an opinion based on little true knowledge and then proceed to their soap box.

Of course there are exceptions and this is just my perception, but that sort of thing always bothers me.

Don't look at me, I love both equally!

Hell, two of my favorite cars are almost complete polar opposites!

AWD, classic, small 2.3L straight-5, very few computer aids, etc. etc.

RWD, cutting edge (sorta, CF leaf springs ><), big ol' 6.2L Supercharged V-8, lots of electro-magneto-spiffy-rheostatic-dealies, etc. etc.

It's all good guys!

 

[Quadrax]

Blah blah, nitpicking, blah blah, splitting hairs, blah blah.....

You brought up the radical, trying to compare a car with such fundamentally different design goals means you are either just arguing for the sake of it or you are simply a cretin. Which is it?

I personally never said the gtr was the fastest round the ring or the best drivers car so you are arguing with the wrong person. I am simply trying to extract even one valid critcism of the engineering of the gtr that is not speculation or outright bullshit. I am yet to read an intelligent, cohesive argument against the engineering of the gtr in this thread that isn't based on fantasy.

Are people really that afraid of automotive technology that has already been around for 20 years? The way everyone is carrying on here you would think the car drives itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadrax View Post
The SR8 is not a production car. Although it is street-legal in UK and probably in the USA as well if you register it as a kit car. So the SR8 is the fastest street-legal, factory-built car to go around the 'Ring. The CGT/Zonda holds the fastest production car record.

I'm not sure what your problem is but i never said that.

 

[Meio]

You brought up the radical, trying to compare a car with such fundamentally different design goals means you are either just arguing for the sake of it or you are simply a cretin. Which is it?

Rah rah rah! I'll Troll on Meio even though he has never criticised the engineering of the GT-R. Rah!

I was simply pointing out that the GT-R has smashed no records. I simply get annoyed when people make up their own arbitrary rules as to inclusion for consideration of a record, as some appear to have done in this thread. The Radical SR8 is the current holder of the record supposedly smashed by the GT-R by a good 20 seconds, so how could the GT-R be considered to have smashed it?

EDIT: I have corrected my error and the quote you highlighted is now attributed to the correct author. I'm sorry if my careless use of the multi-quote function caused you any undue distress.

 

[prizrak]

How does removing a bunch of wiring, sensors, and computers ADD weight?

Because you would have to replace them with ACTUAL diffs For instance Audi EDL is nothing more brakes being applied to a slipping wheel to force torque to the other wheel. The diff itself is a simple open diff, stick a torsen or any other LSD in there and you will add weight.

You realise that some people decide to buy a car for similar reasons that some people buy ATVs or RIBs? Their only criteria is raw performance and sense of speed (and possibly price seeing as it will usually be a second car) and fun. The only comfort criteria would be that has a second seat the missus can get into for those occasions where an attempt is made to show her why there is ?30k worth of luxury money sitting the garage most of the time.

I don't necessarily mean comfort. I mean other things such as the ability to see outside the car, ability to park the damn thing, ability to leave it in a parking lot w/o pissing your pants about it being stolen, etc...

 

[Meio]

I don't necessarily mean comfort. I mean other things such as the ability to see outside the car, ability to park the damn thing, ability to leave it in a parking lot w/o pissing your pants about it being stolen, etc...

Your point was the "Can I live with it every day?" as the only rational sentiment for buying any car.

My point was that people who buy mental track weapon type cars are not intending to use them every day. They will get them out on the weekend, clean them, maintain them and go for a b-road blast or a track day, maybe stopping of at a country pub for a lemonade while the locals coo over the crazy contraption in the car park too.

 

[TC]

It's 3800lb and to be fair is a 2+2 which is common among sports cars. I'm still not sold on the transmission myself but please explain the negative aspects of the gtr awd system as you see it.

I was just exaggerating with the weight.

The AWD thing is just personal preference really. I would be an idiot to claim it wasn't massively effective and very good. I just have this "thing" for RWD and manual transmissions. I like driving those kind of cars and feeling how the car reacts when I whip the wheel in one direction or another. It's easy to understand the driving dynamics of a car like that. But driving cars with AWD, like my brother's WRX, always seem a bit cold. They just go. You turn wheel, car goes that direction. Totally effective, but somewhat impersonal.

I wouldn't mind AWD and a trick auto-box in my daily driver, at all, but I wouldn't want my weekend toy to have either of those things. I would rather have some old RWD air-cooled 911, then a modern car with trick electronics/AWD/etc.

 

[thedguy]

Because you would have to replace them with ACTUAL diffs For instance Audi EDL is nothing more brakes being applied to a slipping wheel to force torque to the other wheel. The diff itself is a simple open diff, stick a torsen or any other LSD in there and you will add weight.

I'm gonna have to remember that.

 

[JCE]

I love this topic. Man, its hot in here. I can't wait until the ZR1 officially sets a laptime so I can put on my flame retardant suit and read that million page topic. Classic. Thanks for the laughs guys. :lol:

 

[hansvonaxion]

I love this topic. Man, its hot in here. I can't wait until the ZR1 officially sets a laptime so I can put on my flame retardant suit and read that million page topic. Classic. Thanks for the laughs guys. :lol:

No kidding. The GT-R does that to people.

I think we almost made it to the realisation that there are 2 types of fun.

One is taking a car to, and a bit beyond, the limit. This can be done in any car at almost any speed (look at TG celebrity lap - they all have a blast) but its most fun in a RWD car with a manual transmission and minimal driver aids (generalisation for arguments sake).

The other is the fun of outright speed. Look at the motoring journalists who drove the Veyron (Chris whatsisname was pretty stoked), they were all impressed and all enjoyed themselves. Look at the ones who drove the GT-R, none of them looked bored, they all enjoyed it.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, to all the people knocking the GT-R for being so fast but lacking "soul" or "driving feel" or whatever, yet praising the Z06 etc for their driver rewarding experience, please keep this in mind;

Most people will get closer to the full potential of the GT-R and therefore be faster than pretty much anything else. They will be having the time of their lives passing everything at the track.

The guy in the Z06 will also be enjoying himself, perfecting his shifts and hanging the back out now and then.

And the guy in the MX-5 getting lapped will also be having a ball.

All manufacturers are trying to strike a balance between speed and driver interaction, the GT-R is not in some special class.

 

[Crazyjeeper]

No kidding. The GT-R does that to people.

I think we almost made it to the realisation that there are 2 types of fun.

One is taking a car to, and a bit beyond, the limit. This can be done in any car at almost any speed (look at TG celebrity lap - they all have a blast) but its most fun in a RWD car with a manual transmission and minimal driver aids (generalisation for arguments sake).

The other is the fun of outright speed. Look at the motoring journalists who drove the Veyron (Chris whatsisname was pretty stoked), they were all impressed and all enjoyed themselves. Look at the ones who drove the GT-R, none of them looked bored, they all enjoyed it.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, to all the people knocking the GT-R for being so fast but lacking "soul" or "driving feel" or whatever, yet praising the Z06 etc for their driver rewarding experience, please keep this in mind;

Most people will get closer to the full potential of the GT-R and therefore be faster than pretty much anything else. They will be having the time of their lives passing everything at the track.

The guy in the Z06 will also be enjoying himself, perfecting his shifts and hanging the back out now and then.

And the guy in the MX-5 getting lapped will also be having a ball.

All manufacturers are trying to strike a balance between speed and driver interaction, the GT-R is not in some special class.

Well put.

 

[flyingfridge]

But driving cars with AWD, like my brother's WRX, always seem a bit cold. They just go. You turn wheel, car goes that direction. Totally effective, but somewhat impersonal.

That's more to do with quality chassis set up than AWD. Don't forget a GC8 WRX only weighs 1200kg and a GDB just under 1400kg. They're very light cars. One thing a lot of people seem to get lost in is how drastically AWD improves handling. It doesn't. AWD improves TRACTION. Turn in and corner speed are solely the domain of brakes and suspension, not how many diffs you have.

I know what you mean a little bit with the way a WRX turns in, it's very quick to change direction because it's so well balanced. But trail brake and balance it on the nose into a corner and hit the throttle as hard as you can on the apex and the wide world of four wheel drift and the WRX's true character shines through. They're amazing little cars on the track.

 

[hansvonaxion]

Well put.

Thanks. Forgot to mention that the GT-R being the everyday supercar fits that role better with a semi-auto 'box (your Granny can drive it, heavy traffic is not a pain in the arse), AWD (for those in snowy areas), all the other driver aids (again, your Granny or wife etc will not be so intimidated with all the switches in the "on" position, but you can switch them all to "off" when you want) and 4 seats and a boot.

 

[jackernapes]

I love this topic. Man, its hot in here. I can't wait until the ZR1 officially sets a laptime so I can put on my flame retardant suit and read that million page topic. Classic. Thanks for the laughs guys. :lol:

hahaha, freaking seconded man

 

[Polly]

 

[prizrak]

I'm gonna have to remember that.

I'm confused

 

[tigger]

No one driving a Fairmont has ever been told "that fast lap was all because of the car."

No one driving a Fairmont has ever been told, "that was a fast lap!"

That might change if I can hang onto this thing for a couple more years.

I am yet to read an intelligent, cohesive argument against the engineering of the gtr in this thread that isn't based on fantasy.

Who's arguing against the engineering of the GTR?

I'm confused

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that thedguy finds Audi's EDL as funny as I do. Why not replace it with an ACTUAL diff and keep from tearing up brake pads? EDL just seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[Crazyjeeper]

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that thedguy finds Audi's EDL as funny as I do. Why not replace it with an ACTUAL diff and keep from tearing up brake pads? EDL just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Also, open diffs are only marginally lighter than a limited slip.

Open Diff
http://img373.imageshack.**/img373/5881/b8711sq5.jpg


Limited Slip
http://img398.imageshack.**/img398/8534/4bb81uu7.jpg


Note that both a full of heavy gears. The only difference in this case is that the limited slip has some clutches in the side gears and that spring in the middle. The weight increase from having a proper diff versus an open one is marginal.