The future of Europe

Okaen said:
My interpretation of the article posted by MacGuffin is that the author wants a strong central power. The author also said that this central power would take power away from the people they govern. That seems rather scary to me.
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It scares the shit out of me, the EU shouldn't have anything to say about how we rule our country.
 
I don't see the EU surviving the next big depression. Once the money dries up no one will care what the EU says.
 
The problem with the EU is something everybody overlooked when the whole thing was set up. Deep down, Europeans just simply don't like each other.
 
I tell you a secret: Deep down humans do not like each other in general! The very existence of the Ten Commandments proves that.

Americans also secretly hate each other (and the Canadians). Northern Germans are completely different to Southern Germans. Texans are different from New Yorkers and people from the US state of Georgia are different to people from California. Scots hate the English and the English look down on the Irish.

That doesn't have to do anything with nations, though. It goes straight down to the smallest groups of people. For example I can't stand big parts of my family.

Sympathy or antipathy doesn't have to do anything with national differences or languages, it happens on a much more basic level. Deeply inside we are all still programmed like cavemen. A few thousand years of civilization cannot kill off the animal in us, that has been ruling our actions for a few hundred thousand years.

But at least we can try our best to form steady communities and overcome our mutual animosities. Because deep down we all know, that we depend on each other.

Having said that, I am less afraid of a central European ruling body (because I have trust in the stability of our democracies), than of individuals inside every nation, who are so caught in their nationality, that they feel they have to protect themselves against the "evil influences" from outside. I am much more afraid of nationalists and agitators, who try to seperate us from each other again, than I am afraid of the lousiest EU bureaucrats.

There is chauvinism hidden in there, you know, because if you think you have to protect yourself, your way of life and your achievement from outsiders, you assume that you and your way of living are superior to others and your own people can do it better, than them.

Also it's no coincidence, that the centrifugal forces in the EU seem to grow strongest in countries on the edge of the union and weakest in countries in the center: There is much more exchange of culture and thoughts going on between countries in the center.

Some people in Europe think they rather have to protect themselves from other countries, than joining ranks with them and become part of a bigger community. Fear is the fission fungus, that starts to infect Europe. Fear of falling behind, fear of being left behind, fear of having no influence on the future (who has, really?). And strangely enough it mostly infects the smaller countries, who take the most profit from the EU and couldn't economically survive on their own these days. There is a lot of 19th century thinking involved here and we all know where it lead to in the end.

What we need, is the kind of thinking that leads to events like our annual FinalGear Ringmeet. But for that people actually need to move their butts and go look beyond their own noses. As I have written above: The biggest danger to Europe are not the elites but common people, who don't look further than their own front door.
 
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When is the next public election for the EU President?
 
Hmmm... in 50 years maybe?
 
Just seeing how well this EU democracy is working.

I trust the common people for the most part. The vast majority of them won't rape/rob/kill me. I do fear leaders who rally them to do horrible things. Humans are worst in a mob, kindest in person.
 
Yeah but... you see, such leaders are becoming very popular in some EU member countries at the moment, not in the EU administration itself.
 
MacGuffin said:
Also it's no coincidence, that the centrifugal forces in the EU seem to grow strongest in countries on the edge of the union and weakest in countries in the center: There is much more exchange of culture and thoughts going on between countries in the center.

Some people in Europe think they rather have to protect themselves from other countries, than joining ranks with them and become part of a bigger community. Fear is the fission fungus, that starts to infect Europe. Fear of falling behind, fear of being left behind, fear of having no influence on the future (who has, really?). And strangely enough it mostly infects the smaller countries, who take the most profit from the EU and couldn't economically survive on their own these days. There is a lot of 19th century thinking involved here and we all know where it lead to in the end.
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That is no coincidence indeed, but not because of some hypothetical exchange of thoughts and culture you mention, it's because the core of the EU, i.e. Germany and France could always easily embed its own national interest into the policies of the entire EU (like the common agricultural policy etc.). Now that there are more smaller countries in the EU, a somewhat meaningful opposition has formed against projecting other countries' national interests on the entire EU, which makes some people, like the author of the article you have quoted earlier, all teary eyed and calling for less democracy to have those good old times back.

Regarding who profits most from what, you are, as usual, only looking at the EU only through the optics of the transfer payments, which as far as I am concerned could be abolished tomorrow. It's impossible to compare the real benefits for each country, but Germany, as an export economy benefits from the EU a great lot, only in less visible ways than the transfer payments (and that's a good thing, of course).
 
So it is better to put it all under another bigger leadership?
 
It is normal, that countries, who represent 80 million people, have a bigger say in things, than countries that represent 10 millions or less. In a democracy the majority rules, nothing new about that. Every member country knew about that, when they joined. They were aware, that their influence is proportional to their size. Everyone who cannot cope with that, is free to not join (or to leave again).

No one is being forced to become a member of the European Union but if you join, giving up some sovereign rights is part of the deal. No secret, too.

When it comes to ruling such a huge and complex entity, it cannot be allowed, that the tail waggles with the dog, if you know what I mean. And frankly I'm getting a little tired of the "tails" complaining about the disadvantages all the time, while they gladly accept all the advantages of EU membership.
 
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MacGuffin said:
It is normal, that countries, who represent 80 million people, have a bigger say in things, than contries that represent 10 millions or less. In a democracy the majority rules, nothing new about that. Every member country knew about that, when they joined. They were aware, that their influence is proportional to their size. Everyone who cannot cope with that, is free to not join (or to leave again).

No one is being forced to become a member of the European Union but if you join, giving up some sovereign rights is part of the deal. No secret, too.

When it comes to ruling such a huge and complex entity, it cannot be allowed, that the tail waggles with the dog, if you know what I mean.
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Well, likewise, Germany and France will have to get used the fact that they now represent only about 30% of the EU's population, i.e. nowhere near the majority.
 
Absolutely right. No contradiction to what I wrote above.
 
A good system will save the minority from abuse from the majority. I agree that those countries which jumped into the EU should have known what they were getting into. Though I believe many of them joined for monetary reasons.
 
argatoga said:
Though I believe many of them joined for monetary reasons.
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About everyone who joined the EU since 1970 or so, has done it for monetary reasons, because they wanted to take profit from the European Single Market. And it worked out well for everyone so far (too well actually for Greece, Ireland or Portugal).

But as soon as there are some obstacles or when there is the need to put their own interests behind for a moment, the complaining starts.
 
MacGuffin said:
About everyone who joined the EU since 1970 or so, has done it for monetary reasons, because they wanted to take profit from the European Single Market. And it worked out well for everyone so far (too well actually for Greece, Ireland or Portugal).

But as soon as there are some obstacles or when there is the need to put their own interests behind for a moment, the complaining starts.
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Uhh, how well did the single market work for Portugal and especially for Greece? As far as I know Greece is one of the least open economies in the EU. I'm not saying that it's the fault of the EU, but stil..
 
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H0nzik said:
Uhh, how well did the single market work for Portugal and especially for Greece? As far as I know Greece is one of the least open economies in the EU. I'm not saying that it's the fault of the EU, but stil..
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Since I am feeling a bit German today, let's have some fun statistics time with exports to GDP ratios: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS

Ireland: 80+% - I agree with that one.
Typical 10ish million European small open economies, like Belgium, Netherlands, Czech Republic or Hungary: 70-80%
Germany: 40ish% - not bad for a country of its size, UK, France and Italy are around 20-30%
Portugal: 30ish%
Greece: 20ish%

So, no, the single market doesn't work for Portugal and Greece nearly as well as it could.
 
Well, maybe you misuderstood my "too well actually for Greece, Ireland or Portugal" wrong, because it was meant ironically. They probably were relying too much on the community and did not concentrate much on improving themselves.
 
MacGuffin said:
About everyone who joined the EU since 1970 or so, has done it for monetary reasons, because they wanted to take profit from the European Single Market. And it worked out well for everyone so far (too well actually for Greece, Ireland or Portugal).

But as soon as there are some obstacles or when there is the need to put their own interests behind for a moment, the complaining starts.
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We joined then it is not now, nor never has it been a good idea for us. We joined because (and I am not joking here) we thought we would catch German efficiency like some sort of contagious disease.

So in our case pay way more in than get out, (They told us that there would be a correction in the budget like regional aid to even things up at the time of the 70s referendum - lies) give all our fish away, betray our real friends (NZ, Aus, Can, S.Africa etc.) who always help us when we need it and who we really do have/had a special relationship with (i.e. not the US).

All this bollocks of never fighting a war in Europe again - do not worry we would not anyway. And to be honest I do not want to have a ever closer relationship with a bunch of crook foreign politicians. We have our own crooks to worry about.
 
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