Tough Crowd

You need to try it out. if it disturbs you then a manual is not for you - at least not an infinity, if it does not then fine go for it.
 
Cobol74 said:
Steve,

If you learn on an auto and are not ver proficient with a manual then I can see where you are coming from but as a general rule if you are competent with a manual then it will always beat an automatic for fuel consumption all other things being equal - however there are times when an auto is actually more applicable even in Europe & lots of town driving plus you not paying for the petrol = get an auto.
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"back in the day" many automatics were 3 speed with no overdrive for cruising, and manuals were often 5 speed with overdrive (I'm referring to the period of the 70's, 80's)

So manuals definitely had advantages.

But now, with virtually every automatic having an overdrive gear for cruising, and many being 5+ speed, the mechanical advantages have dwindled substantially.

So then you get down to driver efficiency. Does the driver always make every optimum shift? I know in an automatic, I often don't. If I see I might have to transition back to the brakes, I might hold the car in a gear for a moment longer than needed. Add up those moments, and the standard loses every advantage.

Steve
 
I have a manual and drive the same roads a lot and coast in neutral. Automatics don't completely unlock like a manual can.
 
Steve Levin said:
Add up those moments, and the standard loses every advantage.
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:? That's why manual cars consistently get worse gas mileage than the same car with an auto, right? And they're slower too?

Please show me an instance where an automatic is more efficient than a manual. Even with the same number of gears and even gear ratios, the manual can be a more efficient choice. Why? The whole package is lighter and has less rotating mass inside it. Not to mention that a manual allows a driver to keep it in whatever gear he chooses. You talk about driver inefficiencies, doesn't an automatic transmission unnecessarily kick down a gear for even light acceleration? And if it doesn't have a lock-up torque converter you'll be revving unnecessarily high on the freeway. Most people who own cars with manuals do drive them conservatively (that's my observation anyway), with an automatic you don't even have a choice.
 
mattjm321 said:
I have a manual and drive the same roads a lot and coast in neutral. Automatics don't completely unlock like a manual can.
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You should actually coast in gear, if you're off the gas in a modern car there is no fuel being injected to the engine. In neutral the engine has to be kept going by injecting some fuel.
 
Steve Levin said:
"back in the day" many automatics were 3 speed with no overdrive for cruising, and manuals were often 5 speed with overdrive (I'm referring to the period of the 70's, 80's)

So manuals definitely had advantages.

But now, with virtually every automatic having an overdrive gear for cruising, and many being 5+ speed, the mechanical advantages have dwindled substantially.

So then you get down to driver efficiency. Does the driver always make every optimum shift? I know in an automatic, I often don't. If I see I might have to transition back to the brakes, I might hold the car in a gear for a moment longer than needed. Add up those moments, and the standard loses every advantage.

Steve
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I've only been driving for about 5years now and even I have heard all the "benefits" that automatics have over the "old" manuals.

Better economy. Wrong.
Improves road safety. Wrong
More comfortable. Wrong.
etc.

If you're not physically handicapped, you have no reason to justify why you drive a automatic. Just admit that you're a lazy, talentless driver that cannot be bothered to learn to drive. After 1 year of driving I tell you, it's a reflex. Like blinking. I don't even notice when I shift. Nothing agains you personally. I really don't care what kind of gear box you have in your car. But saying that an automatic can be better than a manual is called living in denial.

A manual offers complete control of the car. It will allways be better, more sporty and it will allways have more class. Automatics will be forever cursed. Like FWD. It is a plague and the reason it took over the auto industry is that it was marketed well. Some decades ago when automatics were horrible, like you pointed it out, the were marketed to lazy ass rich fatasses. Now, when they're abit better the marketing people are calling them sporty. ^_^

Gimme a fucking break. Auto transmissions are not sporty, not fuel efficient and they don't improve road safety. This is a dead subject. And comparing auto tranny cars as sporty is as retarded as the people that should drive them.
 
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spend a month dealing with the traffic Steve Levin does, and you'll HATE yourself for having a manual.

Several of my friends who are die hard "manual is the only way to go, you suck for having an auto" eventually either swapped their cars with an auto, or bought something else.

Wasn't the only real complaint with auto's when it came to racing the fact that they would shift at inopportune moments? The Lexus IS300 doesn't do that, Mazda's automatics have a hold button that allow you to keep it in gear until you tell it to shift, or release the hold mechanism.

Clarkson himself felt that Automatic version of the DB9 was loads better than the "z0MG FL4PPY PADDL3$ AR3 THE FASTE$T!"

Explain to me how a manual is more comfortable? If you have to have anything in your hand while driving (say you want to take a sip from that morning coffee)... you now have to hassle with it and trying to shift. Driving in traffic, legs get tired, especially on high performance cars with heavy clutches, shoulders get sore from constantly shifting (not to mention the wear on the syncros and throwout bearings)...
 
thedguy said:
spend a month dealing with the traffic Steve Levin does, and you'll HATE yourself for having a manual.

Several of my friends who are die hard "manual is the only way to go, you suck for having an auto" eventually either swapped their cars with an auto, or bought something else.

Wasn't the only real complaint with auto's when it came to racing the fact that they would shift at inopportune moments? The Lexus IS300 doesn't do that, Mazda's automatics have a hold button that allow you to keep it in gear until you tell it to shift, or release the hold mechanism.

Clarkson himself felt that Automatic version of the DB9 was loads better than the "z0MG FL4PPY PADDL3$ AR3 THE FASTE$T!"

Explain to me how a manual is more comfortable? If you have to have anything in your hand while driving (say you want to take a sip from that morning coffee)... you now have to hassle with it and trying to shift. Driving in traffic, legs get tired, especially on high performance cars with heavy clutches, shoulders get sore from constantly shifting (not to mention the wear on the syncros and throwout bearings)...
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Uh, most cars unless you're flooring it would allow sufficient time to get a drink take a sip and put it back. I don't find I get tired legs or shoulders from my 3 hour commute to uni and back.
 
Steve Levin said:
Have you ever commuted to work in traffic?
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Everyday, and it has yet to bother me. After driving manuals for the past 8 years, it has become reflexive.

As far as sportiness...the standard adds little. It's pretty much a penis argument where men substitute gear levers for manhood.

Steve
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This from the owner of a big ass SRT-8. :lol: Cute.

If you cannot find one reason, ONE reason to own a manual car for everyday use, you may want to reconsider owning an Ariel Atom, even if it would only be for track days.

Even my dry as toast father who drives like an old man (cause he is elderly) has a blast driving a manual and practically begs me to drive my WRX. And when he does, he looks twenty years younger. Last manual car he had was in the 1950's, and he still can do double down shifting and heel and toe.

You know, like any, uh...competent driver can. Just saying.
 
Hidden_Hunter said:
Uh, most cars unless you're flooring it would allow sufficient time to get a drink take a sip and put it back. I don't find I get tired legs or shoulders from my 3 hour commute to uni and back.
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Try LA traffic on a performance clutch and a short shifter, then get back to me.

And on the drink thing, most cars don't give you time when you are sitting at a light and it goes green. Not unless of course you want to scream out in first gear... kind of the exact opposite thing you want to do for fuel economy.
 
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thedguy said:
spend a month dealing with the traffic Steve Levin does, and you'll HATE yourself for having a manual.

Several of my friends who are die hard "manual is the only way to go, you suck for having an auto" eventually either swapped their cars with an auto, or bought something else.

Wasn't the only real complaint with auto's when it came to racing the fact that they would shift at inopportune moments? The Lexus IS300 doesn't do that, Mazda's automatics have a hold button that allow you to keep it in gear until you tell it to shift, or release the hold mechanism.

Clarkson himself felt that Automatic version of the DB9 was loads better than the "z0MG FL4PPY PADDL3$ AR3 THE FASTE$T!"

Explain to me how a manual is more comfortable? If you have to have anything in your hand while driving (say you want to take a sip from that morning coffee)... you now have to hassle with it and trying to shift. Driving in traffic, legs get tired, especially on high performance cars with heavy clutches, shoulders get sore from constantly shifting (not to mention the wear on the syncros and throwout bearings)...
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Well I have to admit that the traffic in Finland may not be as bad as they are in LA or most big cities in US but there is some traffic. Every day when people go to work in the mornings and get off work in the evenings. No offence to your friends, but as I said usually people that drive automatics cannot be bothered to drive a manual they are lazy in my opinion and lack the skill and concentration to drive a manual.

And a manual transmission is hardly a workout. Its just a knob and a clutch... and I wasn't talking about any super hard to use system... there are bad manuals... but I am willing to bet my left nut that there's MANY more awful autos. The thing is that the only reason people think automatics are better, is because they think that manuals are dangerous, harder to use or some other thing that they cannot be bothered to do. That is not true, whatever the reason, it is not true.

About the Mazda... seriously... just get a manual. If they don't offer a manual buy another car that has one. That system sounds alot more complicated than a clutch. And when you sit behind the wheel you should allways concentrate on the road instead of a coffee cup. The whole argument that automatics improve road safety is flawed because of a simple fact. If you give people the opportunity to do something else while they are driving, they will. Still, if you know your car, if you're a good driver you will have no problems to take a drink of that coffee. :)

One should allways concentrate on the goddamn road while driving and if you do that the type of your car's gearbox means absolutely nothing. Actually, now that I think about it if you drive in hard driving conditions a manual is loads better, like Finnish winter... which has now arrived. :D I have said this allready and everyone driving a manual knows this is true. After a very short amount of time of driving a manual only car. Shifting is in your spine.

Manuals offer complete control of the car in any condition and especially in rough conditions, it is better than an automatic. If you know how to drive it brings you confidence in any possible situation, comfortably. And that that confidence offers more road safety than any coffee sipping automatic lazyass incompetent driver ever could.
 
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Writing people off as lazy and incompetent just because they drive an auto is pretty stupid if you ask me. If an auto is all you can do, then yes i'd concider people incompetent, but my father is 50 years old, is quite a good driver (above average at least), and is currently thinking about buying an auto. Simply because he is looking for the most relaxing type of car. He doesn't need full control. Why would he? He is driving to and from work, and my sisters around to whereever they have to go..

An auto is a good alternative to a manual, if you want to have one less thing to worry about while driving. It's not just a fashion item, like a paddle shift gearbox would be.

But i do agree that putting it in a car like the ones drscribed in the article is just stupid. People buying those are going to want as much control as possible.
 
Buktu said:
Writing people off as lazy and incompetent just because they drive an auto is pretty stupid if you ask me. If an auto is all you can do, then yes i'd concider people incompetent, but my father is 50 years old, is quite a good driver (above average at least), and is currently thinking about buying an auto. Simply because he is looking for the most relaxing type of car. He doesn't need full control. Why would he? He is driving to and from work, and my sisters around to whereever they have to go..

An auto is a good alternative to a manual, if you want to have one less thing to worry about while driving. It's not just a fashion item, like a paddle shift gearbox would be.

But i do agree that putting it in a car like the ones drscribed in the article is just stupid. People buying those are going to want as much control as possible.
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My point is that when it comes to sporty cars, there are no alternatives. Manual. That is the only way. If you got a "sports car" with an automatic then you are a poser... yup. Noone will take you seriously if you claim you have a sports car with a automatic. The McLaren SLR is a prime example.

Oh and old age... it's a bit different than a 20-year-old or a man in his 40's that justify automatics because they are more comfy, safe, fuel efficient or whatever than a manual. There are people that buy autos for the right reasons and people that are living in denial. :p

Anyway that's what I think. ^_^ And there are people, mainly/most of them in America, that have never in their lives driven a manual. I'm not saying anyone here has experienced such a loss, but these are usually the people that defend automatics till their last breath even tho if you ask me, they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
 
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Cpt.J There is no special skill involved in driving a manual on the daily commute. It's just an inconvenience, and puts a lot of wear and tear on the throwout bearing, clutch and syncros. I'm not, nor have I ever, claimed an auto was some how more sporty. But when you consider how much most people actually drive a sports car like they should, and how often (especially those around LA) they get stuck in traffic... an automatic makes more sense. Especially when the auto will let you control it every bit like a manual transmission, sans pedal.

How is the Mazda system more complicated? You push a button on the shifter and move it. Thats it. No clutch work, no double clutching to rev match, no heel and toeing just push a slide the shifter back and forth.

All of my friends who drive auto's, don't own their sports car as an auto. Just their daily driver, I fail to see why someone who has a 400hp supra track car is lazy because on his daily commute stuck in traffic for 3 hours a day wants an automatic in his IS300 (which he says provides just as much fun on a back road as any manual).

A manual is more fun, I'll agree to that, but it's also a pointless inconvenience on the daily commute. I'll also agree that anyone buying a Sports car (i.e. Corvette, 350z, Porsche) is a poser when they buy an auto. But when you buy a 2 ton tank that is the 300c that doubles as a daily driver to haul the family/friends around and hit up the occasional track even... an auto ain't exactly bad.
 
I do get what you're trying to say but I just cannot get over the picture in my head that people that drive automatics are lazy. :| There is allso the justifications they use to justify their choice... I don't believe that an automatic is any more comfortable compared to a manual because it has never ever bothered me. Ever. Shifting is not like running a marathon, and I like putting in the effort, I really do, and I think that if everyone would out in the slightest efforts while driving the roads would be safer.
But I do disagree that a auto could offer as much control as a manual.
 
I myself also cannot prescribe that all automatic drivers are lazy, but like anything, you can drive for the sake of convenient transportation, or you can drive to be involved.

Obviously, we here on this board are automotive biased, so our taste and preferences are geared toward passion and the romance of the automobile, the manual transmission is our last connection to the purity of automotive perfection and function. It defines who we are.

How's that for a flowery paragraph, eh?
 
-Cpt. J.- said:
I do get what you're trying to say but I just cannot get over the picture in my head that people that drive automatics are lazy. :| There is allso the justifications they use to justify their choice... I don't believe that an automatic is any more comfortable compared to a manual because it has never ever bothered me. Ever. Shifting is not like running a marathon, and I like putting in the effort, I really do, and I think that if everyone would out in the slightest efforts while driving the roads would be safer.
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There's lazy, and not wanting to put up with it after a long day of work. Plus the added control you claim with a manual isn't hugely important when stuck in traffic. In heavy traffic, there are times you'll miss out on an opportunity because you weren't in gear and that little bit of time it does take to get the car rolling again is just enough to prevent you from grabbing that hole (though personally I hate driving that way cause it rarely does any good).

As far as safer... if you met my cousin or my mom, you'd agree that an auto is a better choice. The concept of "push in clutch, change gear, release clutch, press throttle" took to much concentration for them and would ignore the rest of the road. Both should be banned from driving, but sadly we can't.

But I do disagree that a auto could offer as much control as a manual.
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How so? Now keep in mind I'm talking about the modern transmissions that let you manually select gear, hold gear (ie. engine will bounce on the rev limiter rather than shift), and in the case of the latest Holden's... even rev-match downshift.
 
For example during winter.
It is really slippery so a manual is really better. Or if there is a thick layer of fresh snow in the morning it is easier to get around.
 
-Cpt. J.- said:
I do get what you're trying to say but I just cannot get over the picture in my head that people that drive automatics are lazy. :| There is allso the justifications they use to justify their choice... I don't believe that an automatic is any more comfortable compared to a manual because it has never ever bothered me. Ever. Shifting is not like running a marathon, and I like putting in the effort, I really do, and I think that if everyone would out in the slightest efforts while driving the roads would be safer.
But I do disagree that a auto could offer as much control as a manual.
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tell that to my friend with a 350bhp Eagle Talon TSi with an aftermarket exedy performance clutch. Is it faster at the track? absolutly. Is it more fun to drive on the backroads? oh hell yes. Does it give you more control and confidence while driving in inclament weather? most definitly. Does it suck more cock than a 2 dollar whore if you are stuck in bumper to bumper traffic going between 1st,(2nd maybe if you're lucky) and neutral for 1.5-2 hours everyday on your way into and home from work? Good christ yes. His clutch is like doing a 25lb leg press every time you push it in. sure the first few times you don't even really notice it but after the 100th time or so during the commute you would be suprised how tired your left leg gets. Thats why he has an automatic Jetta for his daily now.
 
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