Tyre questions

Yourself being an idiot you can control, the weather, however, you cannot. I have experienced aquaplaning more than once firsthand, even on moderately new tyres with more than enough profile left, so for me aquaplaning is a very real risk. And trust me, you'd rather have your front end lose grip than your rear end. When your front end loses grip, all you need to do is depress your clutch and keep your wheels straight and it'll sort itself out. Rear wheels losing grip means that you do not know what you will hit hit with which side of the car at which speed. All you know is that you will hit something unless you're in the middle of a field.
 
NooDle said:
Actually so have I. They never mentioned this in the course, which is why I asked here. I sort of understand what you mean, but isn't that only for extreme circumstances?

You never ever oversteer when you're driving normally, unless the weather is extreme or you're being an idiot.
It is however, really easy to understeer in a powerful FWD car.
Click to expand...

Ok, this is the scenario:

You are in a FWD car with a lot of power and the road is slippery.

There is a car in your lane that you have to avoid, quickly. The proper action is to brake before the vehicle, lift off the brake, move to the next lane, stabilise the vehicle if necessary, then brake again or keep driving. (With ABS, there is no need to lift off the brake during the manouver.)

Now, if your front tires have less grip, the car will slow down a little, and as you turn the wheel either move over (if you'r lucky or good) or understeer straight on into the other vehicle. Everything goes from there.

On the other hand, if your rear tires have reduced grip, you will slow down a little (more). Then, as you turn the wheel, the front will (hopefully) follow your input. More often than not, the back will slide out, depending on momentum, irreversibly. You either regain control, or hit the other vehicle with the side or back, causing more damage and more force to be directed to the passengers.

Obviously this is hypothetical, as different factors influence the car's behaviour. Everything being equal, these are the most probable outcomes.

The drivetrain layout does not matter, as the original question was safety related. Accerlerating is not a feasible strategy in almost any avoidance situation. If you have to avoid something and add more speed into the equation, you have failed.

Now, of course, if you have bad tires on a powerful FWD car, you will spin the tires very easily. This will make it more difficult to drive the car. However, this is under the complete control of the driver, meaning that if one cannot control a FWD car, even with a lot of power, something is wrong. Training is the answer.

On a side note: My car oversteers in 6 out of 10 corners when it rains. To counter this, I did two things:
1. Driver Training (professional and at 3 am on empty roads)
2. Adjust my driving, because I know that if I accelerate in slippery conditions, I will lose traction.

So, if your concern is that your powerful FWD car would be easier to control under acceleration if you put your good tires on the front, you are correct. But I'd rather go around the tree, than accelerate into it. Your choice.

Really done arguing now. My writing is barely coherent anyways.
 
Dins said:
Ok, this is the scenario:

You are in a FWD car with a lot of power and the road is slippery.

There is a car in your lane that you have to avoid, quickly. The proper action is to brake before the vehicle, lift off the brake, move to the next lane, stabilise the vehicle if necessary, then brake again or keep driving. (With ABS, there is no need to lift off the brake during the manouver.)

Now, if your front tires have less grip, the car will slow down a little, and as you turn the wheel either move over (if you'r lucky or good) or understeer straight on into the other vehicle. Everything goes from there.

On the other hand, if your rear tires have reduced grip, you will slow down a little (more). Then, as you turn the wheel, the front will (hopefully) follow your input. More often than not, the back will slide out, depending on momentum, irreversibly. You either regain control, or hit the other vehicle with the side or back, causing more damage and more force to be directed to the passengers.

Obviously this is hypothetical, as different factors influence the car's behaviour. Everything being equal, these are the most probable outcomes.

The drivetrain layout does not matter, as the original question was safety related. Accerlerating is not a feasible strategy in almost any avoidance situation. If you have to avoid something and add more speed into the equation, you have failed.

Now, of course, if you have bad tires on a powerful FWD car, you will spin the tires very easily. This will make it more difficult to drive the car. However, this is under the complete control of the driver, meaning that if one cannot control a FWD car, even with a lot of power, something is wrong. Training is the answer.

On a side note: My car oversteers in 6 out of 10 corners when it rains. To counter this, I did two things:
1. Driver Training (professional and at 3 am on empty roads)
2. Adjust my driving, because I know that if I accelerate in slippery conditions, I will lose traction.

So, if your concern is that your powerful FWD car would be easier to control under acceleration if you put your good tires on the front, you are correct. But I'd rather go around the tree, than accelerate into it. Your choice.

Really done arguing now. My writing is barely coherent anyways.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know those typical situations in the driver training courses - basically avoiding an obstacle in your lane and the correct ways to react. But the situation I have in mind is more like when you're driving through a bend, possibly a bit faster than you should, and you're surprised by a puddle of water. By the time you manage to eliminate the undesteer, you may as well already be in the left lane or off road. The back of the car stepping out just doesn't worry me, cos it just never happens as all the weight of my car is in front. But yeah I don't wanna argue about it either.
 
My 2 cents on this is that I find oversteer far far easier to deal with than understeer. Oversteer doesn't really scare me, at all. I find it fun, and often induce it whenever I feel it's safe to do so. But I also don't freak out if it happens accidentally, because simple steering correction is all that's needed to get out of it.

Understeer, however, scares the shit out of me. Maybe I don't really know what I should do, but it seems that once the front tires lose grip, you are just along for the ride. You better pray there's not another car coming down the lane or a tree on the far shoulder because you have no steering and no braking. I almost put my van into someone's front lawn because of it.
 
Assuming two of the tyres are more worn, but still usable, I'd rather have my good tyres on the front. They do the majority of the braking and turning.

I am not most people, though.

As discussed in other threads, for your average idiot understeer is safer. If you don't know how to countersteer out of a tail-out slide, then the nose-ploughing understeer that can be resolved by just lifting off suits them better. And crashing front on is better than a side impact.
 
Well, you guys go right ahead, I think I've made my points clear enough.

Apperantly you lot drive totally different to me, as I've never ever ever had problems with controlling or reducing understeer. Don't know what's difficult about it.

Hope it rains tonight so I can go out and have a little fun :D
 
Dins said:
Well, you guys go right ahead, I think I've made my points clear enough.
Click to expand...

You did, and I thank you for it.
I'm beginning to see now.

The best thing regardless of FWD or RWD or car type, is to have 4 new tyres on every corner. Or atleast equally worn, so the car reacts the same all over
 
wow. I'm certainly glad Adu and dins was here to warn you idiots.

anyone who does not agree with them is an idiot that NEEDS to follow the tire manufacturer's advice. Just because you can push your own car into an oversteer situation and easily correct it does NOT mean you will be able to properly control and stabilize your car when NATURE induces the oversteer. the fatal flaw in your reasoning is either a) you make the assumption that steering and brakes on the front of your car will save you when going ass-first into a corner, or b) never thought that the rear end of your car could swing back like a pendulum when you apply some opposite-lock, sending you in a 360degree spin, in which your senses will be compromised from the effects of dizziness.

Whether or not any of you believe it, the nose of your car is designed specifically to absorb energy not only equivalent to your speed on the highway, but someone coming in the opposite direction of equal speed. your belts, and the first airbags were all designed to reduce injury in a frontal collision. you all are assuming you can drift or powerslide your way out of trouble, never for once thinking that regardless of the situation, over or understeer, that you will get into an impact. More fatalities occur when a car is hit in the SIDE, not the front. you remain straight if you're understeering, and when you're oversteering, you're sideways, exposing the least impact-resistant part of your car to the obstacle you are attempting to avoid. would you rather have 4" or steel, or 36" between you and a telephone pole or guard rail?
 
Humm, i feel like we had this conversation not too long ago. Some thread about Oversteering vs Under.

I must say, at first glance you would think you want the "better" tire on the front. I mean its the tire that puts the power down (FWD cars), turns, and where 80% of your braking power comes from for the most part. But when you think about it, it does make senses that you would want your rear tires to have the most grip in preventing you from going in to over steer situation and helping tracking.

But at this point you are going to be trading some off, so if you have a new set of tires in the rear and old pair in the front you give up some steering performance and braking in return for safer tracking and corning. And if you do vice-versa you get the opposite effects. And in some case, having better front or rear tires might increase the unwanted effect. Best is to try to have 4 evenly worn tires, which is why you rotate them at proper intervals so you can get proper wear on all tires.

Then you can have my problem on the Merc which is, i have staggered wheels so no rotating for me. And the car eats rear tires like breakfast, while the front look perfect. RWD FTW, i guess...
 
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