"The battle to win the hearts and minds..."

^ Nice, good to know he got what he deserved.

I'd just like to point out though, stray dogs (and cats) are a huge problem in that part of the world. It doesn't make animal abuse okay, but keep in mind when you watch those videos that most of those animals are not people's pets but strays.

Heck, in Tehran the authorities went around and killed all the stray dogs in the city... though stray cats still exist, probably has something to do with Islam classifying dogs as 'dirty' animals. :rolleyes:
 
I agree: these incidents suck. However, we can't say that the U.S. millitary sucks because of these few exploited incidents. We have to look at both sides of the coin here. There are jerks in any branch of the millitary in any country around the world, because there are jerks everywhere. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to the U.S.

But there are a lot of good people as well. I've had relatives serve tours in the Middle East, and they are the kind of people who would give you the shirt off their back.

And to balance this thread out:

"Iraq puppy adopted by fallen soldier's family
He was photographed with dog from litter the day before he was killed. Rollins and some other soldiers from the 82nd Airborne found the puppies outside an Iraqi police station........."It was the last bit of happiness Justin had," said Rollins' girlfriend, Brittney Murray."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18871405/

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"Laurel lawyer John E. Smathers, a captain in the Army Reserve, returned from a year in Iraq with a broken arm, a wrecked knee and a chest full of medals.

During his tour, Smathers helped thwart a bank robbery and assisted in recovering stolen Iraqi artwork. He survived an ambush and a high-speed auto crash."

"But when he got back in March 2004, he was determined to complete a final mission: to rescue Scout, a dog he and other soldiers had adopted, from the increasingly bloody streets of Baghdad and bring him to his Howard County home. Scout was resolute, loyal. So was Smathers."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/19/AR2005101902344.html

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"Major Brian Dennis found a wounded dog and took care of it. The dog?s ears had been cut off so he named it ?Nubs?. It soon had another wound - Nubs was stabbed with a screwdriver. Major Dennis took care of it too. Soon his troop had to relocate 70 miles away across the desert. He left Nubs behind. Nubs didn?t like that and while still wounded, traveled the 70 miles across the desert to be with the Major again."
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d5c_1202890917
http://www.kcci.com/video/15387099/index.html?rss=des&psp=news
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjY_7zlwEKHtQWvcpCwPD8LXnU0AD8UVNFO84

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"Gathered at the San Diego airport was a throng of reporters and a few Marines. The soldiers, battle scorned and weary from the long War on Terror, suddenly became emotional children.

What could bring such tough men and women to tears? Four-legged friends from Iraq had arrived finally and were one step closer to their new homes. In what has played out many times since the Iraq war began, stray dogs have found themselves ?adopting? soldiers and often, entire battalions.

The scene Saturday at Lindburg Field played out with an enormous amount of fanfare for a few furry creatures."
http://thewire.sheknows.com/news-and-notes/iraq-dog-arrives-at-new-home-with-soldiers-awaiting

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"On Christmas Day, Sgt. Peter Neesley of Grosse Pointe Farms, Mich., died in his sleep in his Army barracks in Baghdad. During his tour in Iraq, Neesley had started taking care of two dogs, a stray Labrador mix and her pup.

He named them Mama and Boris and even built them a doghouse just outside the military base. When Neesley died, his family decided to adopt the dogs and bring them to the United States.

His sister, Carey Neesley, tells Melissa Block that bringing the dogs home was one of her brother's wishes."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19048990

"Today Mama, a black Lab, and Boris her spotted puppy are ending a long journey that has been supported by a lot of people, including a U.S. Senator.

Sgt Peter Neesley sent his family this photo of himself caring for the mother dog and her puppy. Dogs weren't allowed on the Army base, so every day animal lover Neesley looked after them.

Sgt Neesley had told his family that he hoped to bring the dogs home to Michigan when he came back in July. But his family was devastated when they learned on Christmas morning that he had died in his sleep. They launched an effort to bring Mama and Boris home."
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/pawsfurthought/archives/131416.asp?from=blog_last3

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"In a war time Valentine?s Day to remember, Charlie, a black-and-white puppy and unit-mascot for Charlie Company serving in Iraq, took his first steps on American soil today with Vermont resident Christine Sullivan there to help welcome him home. Charlie?s safe arrival is thanks to SPCA International?s program, Operation Baghdad Pups.

?Me, and all the guys in our company, almost don't believe it and we can't wait for him to get his first taste of the good old USA,? explains one Charlie Company Soldier. ?We especially can't wait until we can see him again.?

It is thanks to Charlie and Charlie Company that SPCA International founded Operation Baghdad Pups and is currently working to bring 13 more companion animals out of the war zone. SPCA International hopes to see that number continue to rise as more people hear about the program and the opportunity to save the lives of the animals that have comforted our troops through the terrors of war."
http://network.bestfriends.org/vermont/news/22912.html
 
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Shawn does bring up a good point I forgot to mention...those animals are presenting a problem; I've heard of people being attacked by them in Iraq - numerous soldiers have had to actually save people from them as they roam the streets looking for food. Doesn't justify flinging a puppy off a cliff though - that was a little messed up.


And the intention wasn't to slander the military or the bulk of individuals serving; I know that these are the requisite 'bad apples'. Just giving you the heads up for what's going to be on CNN tonight.
 
14 videos from over 5 years we have stronger evidence that OJ is innocent
 
No Boss said:
Double posting this here, Marine from the puppy throwing video is now under investigation. Behold the power of the internet, I guess.
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Good to know.

War undoubtedly desensitizes people, but throwing puppies off cliffs and blowing up sheep is still fucked up. Any one soldier I know wouldn't stand for any of that.
 
You all do realize that several hundred thousand soldiers have done tours in Iraq, right? A few videos, and there are quite few, really don't mean anything. Most of those incidents are really not all that bad anyways. And then there is the fact that we don't know the circumstances behind most of those videos.
 
jetsetter said:
You all do realize that several hundred thousand soldiers have done tours in Iraq, right? A few videos, and there are quite few, really don't mean anything. Most of those incidents are really not all that bad anyways. And then there is the fact that we don't know the circumstances behind most of those videos.
Click to expand...

Always Mr. Optimism, huh? :roll: The fact that these videos are leaking on the Internet for the entire world to see doesn't really build up a strong case for both America as well as the thousands of upstanding soldiers who are actually well-adjusted and not utter monsters. They'll all get tarred with the same brush.
 
BlaRo said:
Always Mr. Optimism, huh? :roll: The fact that these videos are leaking on the Internet for the entire world to see doesn't really build up a strong case for both America as well as the thousands of upstanding soldiers who are actually well-adjusted and not utter monsters. They'll all get tarred with the same brush.
Click to expand...

I know that and I didn't deny it. Unfortunately most people are way too sensitive and have no idea about the realities of war.
 
jetsetter said:
Unfortunately most people are way too sensitive and have no idea about the realities of war.
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War does not mean an utter suspension of conventional morality. Killing unarmed civilians is still wrong. Tormenting/blowing up random animals is still wrong.
 
No circunstances justify this kind of thing.
 
jetsetter said:
Most of those incidents are really not all that bad anyways.
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Yeah!

Fuck all those innocent people and animals that have it bad enough living in a war zone. It was better to just shoot them, huck them off cliffs, and throw grenades at them. Who cares right? It's war, baby! AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
 
No Boss said:
Yeah!

Fuck all those innocent people and animals that have it bad enough living in a war zone. It was better to just shoot them, huck them off cliffs, and throw grenades at them. Who cares right? It's war, baby! AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
Click to expand...

Read a few books on the various wars then come back and talk to me. I don't judge the conduct of soldiers in wartime by the normal values of society, you really can't. You could try but then thousands would be convicted and the system would break down. You must realize that the US force in Iraq is one of the best behaved in history for its size.

The animal thing, I doubt the Iraqis give a shit. Wild dogs run rampant over there and they are seen in many cases as a annoyance.

As for the videos of the "shootings", do we know the stories behind them? Do we actually know what is going on? It is best not to base your opinion off a grainy clip that only lasts for a few minutes. An example is this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSTI3Ast45Q , I mean WTF? Some music and a few photos and some text? What really happened? That clip gives me almost no information on anything.

And then there is the reality that war can be quite boring. Soldiers go on patrol and then come back and sit for hours with very little to do. It is not surprising that .000001% of them went a little overboard with their boredom.

I'm not saying that soldiers can't commit crimes, a few do but what I am saying is that most of these videos have been taken out of context.
 
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No Boss said:
Yeah!

Fuck all those innocent people and animals that have it bad enough living in a war zone. It was better to just shoot them, huck them off cliffs, and throw grenades at them. Who cares right? It's war, baby! AMERICA FUCK YEAH!
Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, I think these instances are tragedies, but I think it's dishonest to single out one country here. It's not just America or U.S. troops. I wish people would get past that point. This sort of thing happens any time you give people weapons and authority. There are always going to be bad apples in the bunch. I don't think any military has been immune from this.

For instance:

British troops 'beat Iraqi boy': The Ministry of Defence has begun an investigation into claims that troops kicked and stoned a 14-year-old Iraqi during a tour of duty in which civilians were repeatedly abused.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1434615.ece

British soldiers killed a 26-year-old Iraqi civilian by repeatedly beating him on the neck, chest and genital areas, High Court judges have heard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3931023.stm

UK troops 'beat Iraqi hotelier': An Iraqi civilian said he believed he was going to die while being beaten by British soldiers in Basra in 2003. Ahmad al-Matairi told the hearing at Bulford Camp, Wilts, that soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment took bets on who could make him fall down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5381968.stm

Army fury at BBC Panorama claim that British troops mutilated Iraqis after Battle of Danny Boy: Senior army commanders reacted with fury last night to a Panorama programme which claims UK troops tortured and murdered six Iraqi civilians in cold blood.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...9&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

British Troops Beat Up Barefoot Iraqi Teens: A video shown on BBC TV on February 11, 2006 shows British soldiers savagely beating and kicking unarmed Iraqi teenagers in an army compound. Officials at the Ministry of Defense are said to have investigated and established beyond doubt the authenticity of the video.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Feb06/Rajiva14.htm

Four UK soldiers accused of forcing an Iraqi teenager into a river to his death had earlier attacked his fellow looters, a court has heard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4968700.stm

The British government said Sunday that it was investigating allegations that British soldiers viciously kicked, butted and beat Iraqi teenagers in custody at an army compound in Basra in 2004.

The video then shows scenes in which the soldiers kick the youths, striking one in the genitals, as well as butting, punching and beating them with their fists and batons for a total of 42 blows in 60 seconds' worth of footage, the newspaper reported.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/12/news/abuse.php

British soldiers accused of executing civilians: if allegations made yesterday are true, the battle on May 14 2004 also led to the torture and execution of up to 20 Iraqi civilians, some of whom were mutilated before they died. It may be that British soldiers and officers covered up "one of the most atrocious episodes in British army history," lawyer Martyn Day said yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/23/military.iraq?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
 
jetsetter said:
I'm not saying that soldiers can't commit crimes, a few do but what I am saying is that most of these videos have been taken out of context.
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Oh, puh-leaz get your head out of your ass. On many of those videos (I couldn't watch all of them, didn't register for VideoLeak) you hear the soldiers do whatever abuse they do, and then they laugh like maniacs and their buddies cheer them on.

I think the context is pretty damn clear in most of these... they're doing it for fun.
 
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It's all in the context of war.

War is a giant suspension of all morality. Ironically, it brings out the best and worst of humanity. The sole purpose of war is to kill enough people on the other side before they do the same to you. That's it. On a side note, I find the Geneva Convention and other similar "rules of war" to be quite amusing. Although it is highly unlikely that ANY nation follows any international warfare behavior policies.

Nevertheless, war is brutal. Who is to say that such an emotional and physical trauma won't mess with your head so much that your actually enjoy the sight of others suffering? How do we not know that the soldiers are actually mentally ill and needs psychiatric help instead of prison time or even execution?

Keep in my mind I am not trying to justify for his actions in a way to make it "OK", but merely to offer some alternative reasons for why he did what he did and to adjust the punishment/therapy accordingly.
 
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^ That's what I was saying before but I was told my thoughts were mere opinions and uninformed as well. I agree this sort of abuse for the sake of amusement is due to what these soldiers do as part of their jobs for the army, but this doesn't mean there isn't a problem here that needs addressing. Maybe they need a morale booster? Maybe Rick Cheney could pay them a visit and uplift them.

I think it's pretty presumptuous to suggest that no nation or its army follow the Geneva Convention and similar treaties. Maybe they all violate them from time to time to different extents, but to suggest such that rules in place to protect basic human rights is laughable is, well, laughable itself.
 
Shawn said:
^ That's what I was saying before but I was told my thoughts were mere opinions and uninformed as well. I agree this sort of abuse for the sake of amusement is due to what these soldiers do as part of their jobs for the army, but this doesn't mean there isn't a problem here that needs addressing. Maybe they need a morale booster? Maybe Rick Cheney could pay them a visit and uplift them.

I think it's pretty presumptuous to suggest that no nation or its army follow the Geneva Convention and similar treaties. Maybe they all violate them from time to time to different extents, but to suggest such that rules in place to protect basic human rights is laughable is, well, laughable itself.
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Agreed. I don't think anyone here is saying that it's not a problem. It obviously is. And, unfortunately, it's part of the ugly face of war. But I do disagree with those who see a 60 second video clip, and then shout "OMG HE MUST DIE HE IS A PUPPY MURDERER!!!" Those kinds of responses are juvenile.

And this is why we need to avoid war at all costs and use it as a last resort option. WWI, WWII, Desert Storm, etc., those were neccessary wars. Not so sure about this Iraq War.....:(
 
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