Any other RWD purists out there?

[prizrak]

So far I've only gotten + reps for this thread.

Anyway, rwd is fine for the winter if you know what you are doing and have proper equipment, we're all agreed on that? The hting is, that when a front wheel drive car has better acceleration initially it results from it's weight being mostly on the front axle. As we all know, 50/50 weight distribution is what you want to go for, and if all cars, regardless of drivetrain had that ideal setup, fwd would be worse at moving off on in the snow. Therefore I think the point about fwd being better is stupid, since what you win (a bit) in moving up an icy hill, you will lose when you understeer into a fence..

Oh yeah, one thing ii didn't mention is that I wouldn't mind a 4wd car if it had a decent 4wd system which it suited the car. For instance I would never buy an Opel Vectra 4x4, but an impreza would be just fine.

I would - rep you as a joke but I got too much rep power and dont wanna bring your rep down

Damnit double posted :/

 

[thevictor390]

Yeah, most of us don't just throw negreps around when we disagree with something. Those are reserved for post(er)s who are so useless as to degrade the quality of the forum.

 

[DanRoM]

And I'm sure Posmo would say something like "WTF LOL? I got neg-repped for having an opinion??!?" if someone neg-repped him for not liking FWD cars. And rightly so because that would be hilarious. About as hilarious as pos-repping him for it.

 

[2Billion]

I came soooooo close to -repping for the lulz, but then I figured it was kind of a duck* move, so I decided not to.

*I meant to type dick move, but duck move is funnier.

 

[freeferrarisdonotexist]

Actually, FWD is more maintenance intensive than RWD, as those CV boots and joints tend to go out far more often than their RWD counterparts. It is also more difficult to maintain - just ask airmenair here who just had the delightful experience of servicing the transmission on his FWD Acura/Honda. There are a few more parts on a RWD drivetrain as opposed to a FWD drivetrain, but that is offset by the fact that the parts are simpler and under far less stress as they don't actually have to deal with steering the car directly.

The only traction advantage a FWD car has is initial traction from a stop because of the weight over the drive wheels; even that is illusory. If you have a RWD vehicle with the same weight over the drive wheels, it will have the same traction. Once it starts moving and weight transfer comes into play, the RWD car will have more traction than the FWD one. And even in every day driving, RWD is safer - if your front wheels lose traction in a turn, you can still steer with the throttle. Can't do that in a fail wheel drive car.

Fail wheel drive is only popular because it's cheaper for manufacturers to crank out FWD cars. And even then, modern manufacturing means that the cost delta is very small now.

***

Posmo, you know damn well that unless someone held a gun to my head or something similarly dire that I won't be buying a FWD car. Ever.

Exactly my views on the subject- for example, the old Beetle had RWD but excellent immediate traction, because the weight (read: engine) was on top of the drive wheels. But other forms of weight can be placed nearer and sometimes even above the drive wheels in a front or mid-engined car and give the benefits of FWD without the irritating service.

I also do think that if someone is getting a driver's licence, it should be in a RWD manual car. If it isn't, than that person should be restricted to FWD and/or automatics and not be qualified for a full licence. This is because in general a RWD standard gearbox car takes the most skill to drive in difficult conditions, generally.

And no I could not buy anything FWD (apart from maybe an old Mini). It's why Miatas and bikes hold so dear to me .

 

[frankiess]

Any other RWD purists out there?

Yo.

I'll also accept the occasional ATTESA-ETS.

FWD has it's moments though. I couldn't, for instance, stop smiling at the wheel of that (second gen) Type-R.

 

[FleeceLINER]

You still need AWD to make snow your bitch.

 

[Jay]

My first car was a 1986 Pontiac Parisenne, same chassis as a Chevy Caprice. So, RWD with not much weight in the back. Where I live we get snowy, harsh winters and you know what? You get tired of fighting the back end. Front wheel drive is great for commuting in the snow, AWD is just a blast. And no matter, I can drift around just you rear wheel drive guys. The only difference is, I have complete control over it.

Whenever I see something along the lines of "I am a XXXXX purist" I think of a person who is inflexible and too set in their ways, and I think you are a bit of a bore. The "Gotta keep it REEEAAAAL!" gets old fast, Henry Rollins. Now myself, I will never go back to front or rear wheel drive, but if I had to, I will. Same for transmission choice. My arthritis is not, nor will ever get better in my knees, so my manual days will be over sometime in the future.

 

[thedguy]

Um, Posmo.... are you sure you're feeling alright? Did you somehow miss the multitude of "FWD is for the Feeble" threads and posts?

As for me... check out the fleet inventory below. Then guess what I think about FWD.

 

[NooDle]

I also do think that if someone is getting a driver's licence, it should be in a RWD manual car. If it isn't, than that person should be restricted to FWD and/or automatics and not be qualified for a full licence. This is because in general a RWD standard gearbox car takes the most skill to drive in difficult conditions, generally.

this would mean 90% of everyone in the world would be restricted to FWD only, you do realise that.

Also, people who drive RWD nowadays don't know they are. That's because people, in general, are dumb nutsacks who don't care about this sort of thing as long as they get from point A to point B. If B is where they need to be, obviously.

Also2, most people never drive quick enough to have a "real" incident, whether it be FWD or RWD, if/when something bad happens, they're fucked either way


Lastly, the "everyone who does not use studded tyres is a total noob" comment is pissing me off. Not everyone lives in "freezemynutsoffland", and therefore studded tyres are not only a bad idea, but ILLEGAL.
The reasons for them being illegal are irrelevant, point is they are illegal. If the cops pull me over and ask me WTF I'm doing, I can't go "well some dude in Finland says this is the only way to go"

 

[prizrak]

t
Also2, most people never drive quick enough to have a "real" incident, whether it be FWD or RWD, if/when something bad happens, they're fucked either way

I dunno I seen some idiot spin off the road pretty bad in the rain before in an FWD. Couldn't have been going slow.

 

[GM_IV]

I dunno I seen some idiot spin off the road pretty bad in the rain before in an FWD. Couldn't have been going slow.

Indeed, most of the cars here are FWD...every winter I can guarantee I'll see a Civic sliding off road. Quite a few drivers here are too cheap to buy winter tires and thus their FWD econobox with summer tires not even all-seasons drive like a mess when traction is worse.

Also I don't agree that people wouldn't notice RWD in places where traction may be an issue. A good portion of the people here would buy FWD over RWD because they once experienced the tail happy behaviour of RWD. RWD-based cars like the IS250, BMW 3-series and the C-class often don't sell nearly as many RWD versions compared to AWD versions.

Today's winter tires are much better than just even the last 5 years of winter tires. During the early days of my dad driving this car, the tail did swing a lot. My first years driving the car in the winter a moderate amount of this. The last two winters however...pretty uneventful until I had to dodge a moron Civic last winter where I needed all my driving experience, my LSD and tires to prevent a total mess.

 

[prizrak]

Indeed, most of the cars here are FWD...every winter I can guarantee I'll see a Civic sliding off road. Quite a few drivers here are too cheap to buy winter tires and thus their FWD econobox with summer tires not even all-seasons drive like a mess when traction is worse.

Also I don't agree that people wouldn't notice RWD in places where traction may be an issue. A good portion of the people here would buy FWD over RWD because they once experienced the tail happy behaviour of RWD. RWD-based cars like the IS250, BMW 3-series and the C-class often don't sell nearly as many RWD versions compared to AWD versions.

Yep I have noticed it as well. I see alot of Xdrive, 4Motion and AWD badges on these cars. In fact both my g/f and my mother said that they can't buy an RWD car because it would be harder to drive under low traction conditions.

 

[katwalk]

this would mean 90% of everyone in the world would be restricted to FWD only, you do realize that.

^This. If I wanted lessons in a RWD car here I would have to drive hours out of the way and pay thousands of dollars extra, you don't even get taught how to drive a manual here. Also, RWD cars are usually not slow ecoboxes and have decent power. Do you want to be on the road with 16 year olds learning to drive something powerful? That's a scary thought considering how many idiots lose control of freaking minivans and such.

Indeed, most of the cars here are FWD...every winter I can guarantee I'll see a Civic sliding off road. Quite a few drivers here are too cheap to buy winter tires and thus their FWD econobox with summer tires not even all-seasons drive like a mess when traction is worse.

I've seen plenty of 4WD SUVs slide of the road, I have never had any problem with my FWD car with all season tires. That has nothing to do with the car it is the idiot controlling it thinking they know what they are doing. More 4WD cars skid off because people say "LOL 4WD I AM FINE" and proceed to drive like the road is clear because they think it will save them.

 

[argatoga]

I've seen plenty of 4WD SUVs slide of the road, I have never had any problem with my FWD car with all season tires. That has nothing to do with the car it is the idiot controlling it thinking they know what they are doing. More 4WD cars skid off because people say "LOL 4WD I AM FINE" and proceed to drive like the road is clear because they think it will save them.

This. I see plenty of 4WD and FWD cars off to the side. There are a lot of stupid people out there. Last Winter I drove to work on top of an ice covered road in my Mustang with a Civic right up on my ass. There were many accidents that morning.

 

[public]

Lastly, the "everyone who does not use studded tyres is a total noob" comment is pissing me off. Not everyone lives in "freezemynutsoffland", and therefore studded tyres are not only a bad idea, but ILLEGAL.
The reasons for them being illegal are irrelevant, point is they are illegal. If the cops pull me over and ask me WTF I'm doing, I can't go "well some dude in Finland says this is the only way to go"

:lol: Forgot about the legislation in Central Europe. And yeah, right now it's mostly just raining here, so the studs in my tires aren't exactly doing anything important.

 

[GM_IV]

I've seen plenty of 4WD SUVs slide of the road, I have never had any problem with my FWD car with all season tires. That has nothing to do with the car it is the idiot controlling it thinking they know what they are doing. More 4WD cars skid off because people say "LOL 4WD I AM FINE" and proceed to drive like the road is clear because they think it will save them.

That is correct, often times its not the car or the drivetrain layout that causes the problem rather its the driver's inexperience or arrogance that causes them to get in trouble. Its why I'm absolutely confident about taking a RWD vehicle even in bad conditions, I equip it properly and I'm 100% focused on driving the car safely and not doing stupid things like tailgating. I even went to school on a day where the news said avoid driving that day due to black ice and a lot of accidents occurred. I made it to school without a road issue(I funny enough was driving the quickest due to the weight transfer Spectre mentioned, but was still below the speed limit). Of course...classes were dismissed.

4WD SUVs do produce the feel of more traction than a regular 2WD car, its sometimes a wonder if drivers are too reliant on their cars to help them rather than their own driving skill. Technically these vehicle are the easiest to get through winter thanks to great ground clearance, lots of weight over the drive wheels and not limited to 2 wheels moving. With all this help, it does not excuse the stupid driving.

 

[LeVeL]

Where does this idea that you need to be taught to drive RWD come from? I learned to drive with FWD. Then one winter I got into a RWD car, found an empty parking lot, and spent an hour learning to control slides. Done! No one is helpless to the point of being unable to go to an open area, slide around a bit, and figure out what to do in a slide. If you live somewhere where it doesn't snow, then go to a local autocross - $30 buys you a very valueable lesson on driving whatever you're in.

 

[Polygon]

I've seen plenty of 4WD SUVs slide of the road, I have never had any problem with my FWD car with all season tires. That has nothing to do with the car it is the idiot controlling it thinking they know what they are doing. More 4WD cars skid off because people say "LOL 4WD I AM FINE" and proceed to drive like the road is clear because they think it will save them.

Exactly!

I was with someone on a really icy road and some idiot in an Excursion wasn't paying attention the red light they were approaching. They hit the brakes and slid right into us doing about $7,500 in damage as they were moving pretty fast for the conditions. She gets out and says that she doesn't understand, it's AWD. I got mad at her and said, yeah, and that only helps you accelerate. As soon as you turn or try to stop is acts like every other car on the road.

 

[freeferrarisdonotexist]

^This. If I wanted lessons in a RWD car here I would have to drive hours out of the way and pay thousands of dollars extra, you don't even get taught how to drive a manual here. Also, RWD cars are usually not slow ecoboxes and have decent power. Do you want to be on the road with 16 year olds learning to drive something powerful? That's a scary thought considering how many idiots lose control of freaking minivans and such.

I don't think anyone who does not know how to control power should be driving. If you can't control a decent amount of power you should not be on the road, or at least have a restricted licence. They do this with trucks and motorcycles, why not cars?

And remember, if I could somehow enforce this law it would be required that the DMV offices had RWD manual cars. I would make it somewhat similar to the motorcycle laws- drive a standard (RWD manual with clutch) layout for the test and get a full licence. Then drive whatever you want.

I've seen plenty of 4WD SUVs slide of the road, I have never had any problem with my FWD car with all season tires. That has nothing to do with the car it is the idiot controlling it thinking they know what they are doing. More 4WD cars skid off because people say "LOL 4WD I AM FINE" and proceed to drive like the road is clear because they think it will save them.

Yep. And these are the same twats who think ABS means their brakes are magical, and that AWD means the exact same thing as 4WD.

Where does this idea that you need to be taught to drive RWD come from? I learned to drive with FWD. Then one winter I got into a RWD car, found an empty parking lot, and spent an hour learning to control slides. Done! No one is helpless to the point of being unable to go to an open area, slide around a bit, and figure out what to do in a slide. If you live somewhere where it doesn't snow, then go to a local autocross - $30 buys you a very valueable lesson on driving whatever you're in.

I agree. But many people have also learned the basics of driving stick (manual) and cars with high power ratings this way- in my mind fine for personal training, but again, if you are going to have a licence which allows you to operate all types of cars you need to be proficient at operating the ones which require the most skill. Therefore those types of cars should be provided for the government-associated teaching and test. Once you can drive that kind of vehicle and get your licence, than you can not only drive your fake-luxobarge FWD saloon with accuracy, you can also drive most other cars with accuracy as well.