News: Skoda boss fired because Skoda is falling out of line in the VAG concern

You're giving VW's branding more credit than it deserves - why is SEAT selling old Audis? Why was VW going upmarket? - and are pretty much ignoring what I'm saying because you're unwilling to admit that a fellow German might have a bad idea. VW doesn't need three brands in the least profitable market segment.

Besides which, YOU were saying VW would win because of a desirable product portfolio. Now that I point out that design-by-photocopier and visible parts bin cost cutting might make it less desirable, now design is irrelevant? You can't have it both ways.

Honestly, I'm just taking lessons from the past. Toyota and GM both were doing what VW is now, and both suffered for it. To ignore the past is just setting yourself up for a repeat performance.

You cannot accuse me of avoiding your arguments, just because you don't like the points I make in my replies :p

I'm merely trying to be sensible and logical, while you are trying to predict the future by referring to the past, using improper examples and speculation.

You're trying to construct a correlation between the fates of GM, Toyota and VW, implying that there is an unavoidability for VW to fail in the end, if they keep on growing and being successful -- and I call "Bullshit!" :)

You're comparing the uncomparable. Those companies couldn't be more different in their structures, product line-ups, market presences and philosophies. The car industry is not a chemistry set, where you can predict the reactions, just because they're all using the same ingredients.

Therefore I call your argumentation inadmissible. That's all I have to say.

Oh, and it surely doesn't improve the quality of the discussion, when things are being drawn on a personal level. That kills every discussion.
 
Last edited:
No matter the arguments you might have on brand positioning, the lineups are basically the same and steal sales from each other.

https://pic.armedcats.net/k/kn/knarkas/2010/03/17/skoda_yeti_580.jpg

https://pic.armedcats.net/k/kn/knarkas/2010/03/17/volkswagen-tiguan.jpg

No they dont. Not anymore than for example Dacia or Nissan eats into the sales of Renault at least. Better to sell one car than no car at all.
 
Last edited:
You cannot accuse me of avoiding your arguments, just because you don't like the points I make in my replies :p

I'm merely trying to be sensible and logical, while you are trying to predict the future by referring to the past, using improper examples and speculation.

You're trying to construct a correlation between the fates of GM, Toyota and VW, implying that there is an unavoidability for VW to fail in the end, if they keep on growing and being successful -- and I call "Bullshit!" :)

You're comparing the uncomparable. Those companies couldn't be more different in their structures, product line-ups, market presences and philosophies. The car industry is not a chemistry set, where you can predict the reactions, just because they're all using the same ingredients.

Therefore I call your argumentation inadmissible. That's all I have to say.

Oh, and it surely doesn't improve the quality of the discussion, when things are being drawn on a personal level. That kills every discussion.

I'm not comparing the uncomparable, I'm comparing companies that chased the #1 spot. It turns out, there are some similarities between all of them, including reckless overexpansion, reduced profits, reduced quality, and eventually a major crisis. There is no evidence that VW isn't following down the same road, especially with some serious GM-style branding - the SEAT Exeo being the worst example of this.

That's not comparing the uncomparable, that's noting a pattern. A pattern which, by the way, VW hasn't broken with yet. GM and Toyota were completely different corporate climates, but extreme expansion lead to the same result.

I bring up that you don't want to admit that a German can do wrong by your own posting history. If a German company does something, MacGuffin will defend it, it's as reliable as the sun. If you don't want to admit your own posting history, that's not my fault.

Also, AiR, I stand corrected on the Yeti note, you're right that it goes in a completely different segment than the VW equivalent. If ALL of Skoda could actually be distinct like that (and the Roomster) we might get somewhere. I'm more concerned about the glut of Golfalikes and the Superb/Exeo/Passat all crowding the mid-sized sedan segment, not to mention VW's wildly stabbing at Audi with the Phaeton and Toureg.
 
You know, repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true...

But to make something clear once and for all:

Yes, I think that the best cars in the world are being made in Germany. And so does most of the rest of the world. So what?

And yes, I'm proud of that. And why not? I'm also proud, that the German car makers so far have not much trouble with that whole economical crisis, while others are on the brink of bankruptcy or have already gone over the edge, with the hand of the goverment grabbing them by the collar to prevent the fall.

That is because they make and sell good products. It's as easy as that. So what? What's wrong with being proud of that, huh? Being German, I kinda have a right to be proud of German products, haven't I? And I'm not ashamed to admit it.

The only "German" car maker in trouble is Opel, which is owned by... tadaaa... General Motors, a.k.a. the greatest failure in car history since British Leyland.

But the fact that I like and am proud of what the German car makers produce, doesn't automatically mean I'm always biased and without criticism.

For example: While I think that VW is on a good way, I'm worried about Mercedes-Benz. Their cars are becoming too ugly for my taste and have fallen behind in quality, compared to Audi and BMW. It has gotten better in recent years but the materials used inside, often look worse than in the competing models from Audi or BMW. The current S-Class for example doesn't look and feel as sophisitcated and isn't as well-made, as the current 7-series. And I always preferred the S-Class so far.

The main reason for this, however, is in my eyes the fact, that Daimler is a quoted company with no major owner. The ownership is scattered. There's a permanent danger of the company being taken over by somebody else. That makes them cautious and forces them to put an emphasis on cost effectiveness in areas, where money shouldn't play such an important role -- like for example the interior quality.

Things are different at VW (owned mainly by the Porsche/Piech clan and the state of Lower Saxony) and BMW (owned by the Quandt family), who can follow a much more long-term orientated strategy and have to answer to no one for it. Especially the quality of the cars from the VW group has improved dramatically in the last decade -- corporation-wide, for all brands. Sometimes even too much, as the Skoda example shows.

Compare a Golf III with the current Golf VI and you won't believe that hardly more than 10 years lies between the two cars.

Of course there is a risk for VW, when growing in size. But the risk can be controlled. It is minimal, as long as they keep on making good, desirable cars in high quality, who can still be afforded by most people, and as long as they don't fall in the same traps GM and Toyota have fallen in.

I see no imminent danger for that, though, because the main triggers for those traps in the case of GM and Toyota have been two factors, that so far aren't existent in the VW management: Arrogance and organizational blindness.

VW have always been a brand of the people, despite their excursions into luxury cars, and make the vast majority of their profit with the Polo, the Golf and the Passat. The Beetle is still in the genes of the company and isn't forgotten as the root of their success.

It isn't easy to run a company with so many brands, who seem to compete for the same customers. But as others have already pointed out: They aren't. VW has managed to give each brand an own identity and image, so that an Audi driver won't be considering a VW and a Skoda driver won't consider a Seat.

Seat for example mainly competes with Italian and French car makers, even though the platforms are the same as in the VW models.

But maybe that is hard to grasp for somebody, who doesn't live in Europe, where all those brands are present.

However, the article that started this thread, explains the current problem with Skoda. They have grown into a position, where the Octavia becomes a threat for the Golf and Jetta and the Superb a threat for the Passat. It seems to me, that the strategy that lead to that, doesn't have the approval of the VW management. Maybe it is even against the directive Skoda has been given. Thus the VW management won't allow Skoda to cannibalize VW models (which alone is proof that the VW management has its brands under control and knows what it does).

So it is, as I said at the beginning of this discussion: Skoda was bought by VW to create a competitor against the cheap Korean imports. Skoda survived because VW bought it for that purpose. Skoda grew and blossomed with the help of the VW group and its components and structures. With their current line-up, though, they're threatening to bite the hand that fed them and to me it is completely understandable, that VW has to step in.

Skoda mustn't forget what it was bought for by VW and what its role is in the VW group: Pulling away price-conscious customers, who aren't car enthusiasts, from the Asian competitors. Yes, it's not a glorious job and the prospect of not being allowed to outgrow the predetermined role, must be both frustrating and grievous.

But hey, look on the bright side: Skoda still exists, has been growing and has been given many people work. And that's the most important part, I think.
 
Last edited:
Well, the fact that VW and Skoda models overlap is is definetely not some kind of breaking news that Spiegel is making it out to be. This has been the case for the past 10 or so years, ever since the Felicia, the last Skoda's own design, went out of production. Since then, the only difference between Skoda and VW is the brand perception (which, of course, depends on the particular market situation and is probably getting washed away with time) and the fact tha Skoda continues to make the Golf IV based Octavia I for people who want a large-ish car for cheap.

I don't so much buy the Spigel's opinion that the Piech' current management is very cross about this right now as it was Piech's old management that drove VAG into this in the first place. His plan was to posiotion VW against Mercedes and Skoda to replace the "old VW". The former has never really happened, while the latter largely has. On the other hand it is a setup that keeps making money, while the rest of the industry is making a loss. The stratregy of making shit products with price as the only selling factor, will only be successful up until the point when someone comes up with an even cheaper product, which was made in an even poorer country, by even worse paid workers and uses even more inferior technologies.

The problem with Seat is that the segment it's aimed at is itself struggling. Seat is actually pretty successful at being VAG's Alfa Romeo, they do actually sell several times as many cars as Alfa. The problem is that it doesn't actually make them a successful carmaker as such, as Alfa is in a pretty deep shit.
 
I agree that at VW they probably saw Skoda becoming a problem for some time. But they presumably wanted to see first, if it really hurts VW or not. I suppose after that "Auto Bild" review, where the Passat was beaten by the Superb, they got a little nervous and decided to take action.

I also read about the plan to position the VW brand against Mercedes but frankly I believe that would never work. The three-pointed star has a magic of its own. Every child in Germany (and probably in most of the rest of the world, too) still learns very early, that a Mercedes is something else -- it doesn't matter, that Audi and BMW are as good or even better these days.

I made this experience myself, when I visited my cousin last year. I had the S-Class back then and her kids (13 and 9 years old) were in awe about the Mercedes. When I came to pick her up last week for the trip to Ulm in the 7-series, there was no reaction by the kids whatsoever.

The three-pointed star is still one of the most valuable and recognizable badges in the world and the name "Mercedes-Benz" still has a unique sound to most people. And that won't change so soon. So any attempt to position VW directly against Mercedes, is doomed from the beginning. It is as futile as Mercedes' attempt to position the A-Class against the Golf.
 
Last edited:
Top