Stuffing a Rotary into a....Fairlady Z?

[The_Finn]

Here is some more cross breeding madness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPfi-ZeQRM

Its old but its good

PS if anyone knows which episode this was from can you please tell me because i am desparate to find out. thanks.

didn't look at the link yet but i am willing to bet this is going to be the crazy quick AE86 with the 20B

EDIT: Yup damn that thing is fast

 

[stevanford1]

One more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypEQHu8TJgY

The goal is to do 6 second quarter miles.

 

[thedguy]

I don't know if you're speaking in general or to me specifically, but I'm a member on rx7club.com, and I couldn't agree more (not only for rotaries but any engine.) That is, unless you know a lot about how to tune of course.

I tend to speak generally, but quote for reference While you are right on any engine needing proper tuning, rotaries are extremely temperamental to bad tunes. Obviously browsing RX7club, you'll notice even the more knowledgeable guys tell people how it should be done tend to break things a lot.

It's probably me, but it seems rotaries tend to break more than the boingers and I've seen enough to know it's more about the owners inability to control themselves (admittedly, why? just bush a button or turn a knob and a few more ponies are at your disposal). This is why I get a bit irritated when I hear people say rotaries are crap because they are unreliable, when it's totally untrue in the case of unmodified pre-S6 (and the S8) RX-7's.

 

[kaBOOMn]

well if you really looked into it, you'd find that RB swaps don't ever do very well, not without a very expensive standalone ECU. It has something to do with the funky way the computers work in the skyline, but 90% of RB swaps you see run like crap.

Spoken like a true American who has never probably seen a RB let alone played with one. So please just be quiet. Unless the laws of engine management (and physics) change when a RB goes into the so called "land of the free", I find it hard to fathom what you guys find so difficult with the Nissan RB engines.....or unless its the case that Americans are simply stupid, which I find hard to belive.....tho I do have my doubts sometimes, esp after reading your post!

I spend quite a bit of my working life poking around Nissan ECU systems, if you want a honest no BS answer to a question, just ask OK? Don't go shooting your mouth off with stupid statements like "the funky way the computers work in the skyline" FFS

It's actually easier to swap a toyota inline 6 into an S-chassis or Z than it is an RB, and IMO they are better motors.

Refer to my first comment. You are correct however in saying they are very heavy motors. Then again the Toyota inline 6's are not that light weight either. Even Nissans SR20 is very heavy compared to the wonderful lightweight CA18.

I'm sorry but what is it with Americans going on about Japanese stuff who don't have a clue? Really.......:? No I don't own a Japanese car, however my day to day car stated its life from the factory with a Japanese engine (RB30) so sadly I've had to descend into the area of the great unwashed Japanese car freaks.....

 

[zenkidori]

No need to be a rude little douche about it, but anyway, I got the lowdown from my roommate on why people have trouble with them. Apparently various systems from the car are tied into the RB ECU, including the ABS, AWD, steering whatever. So if you want to swap one you need to trick the ECU into thinking everything is honky dory, or just get a standalone. I dunno, this is just what I was told. I DO know that most of the RB swaps I've seen ran like crap 90% of the time, unless they had a shop rig everything up with a standalone. On top of that the motors cost a GRIP here, and shops charge for a lot of hours for the swaps, hence my comment about it being overrated. I know you aussies have more experience with these motors, and getting the actual cars is a cakewalk compared to here, but there's no need to be condescending about it.

With the prohibitive cost of standalones, ZERO local parts availability for the RB and the relative ease of install for the 1J, the choice was pretty easy for my buddy.

Myself, I stick to my rotaries, even if I am incredibly lazy.

 

[kaBOOMn]

Well they are wrong the ABS system: its NOT intergrated into the computer nor is the Hicas system. I can't belive the amount of BS that goes on overthere, its incredible. Same goes with a Toyota motor over a Nissan motor for relative ease of install.....well there goes common sense. I'm definatly standing my my first comment.

"common" knowlege is a bitch isn't it? Next time you are told somthing about a RB my advise is to act like a real a***hole and question the guy. Really. Same goes with parts. Quite a few Nissan bits you can chop and change, and why the hell do you insist getting stuff only from Japan?

Still I spoze it is funny that most of the bits I have on my engine (my last rebuild) had made in the USA on them.....

PS

....Sounds more like you guys are having inlet reversion issues if they run like crap.

 

[zenkidori]

::everything below is AFAIK, so don't freak out if you aussies know more than me, I'm sure you do::

The toyota motor needs the toyota ECU and a $200 wiring job, plus mounts. The RB needs more extensive wiring for some reason, and a standalone, as far as anyone here knows anyway. Are you saying that you can just splice the RB in like an SR swap? or do you guys even know about SR swaps since the cars you got already had those, or a CA, not a KA?

also, 1Js can be had for $1500, not so with RBs.

I am curious to know what Nissan parts you think would fit an RB. You can go to your local corner auto part store and get parts for a 1J or 2J, but not with an RB. AFAIK we never even got a car with an RB here. Maybe stuff like a water pump or alternator, but gaskets and seals I don't really think so. Just because something is made here doesn't mean you can go down to napa and buy it.

All I know is what I've observed by talking to my roommate about his swap, and viewing other completed swaps here. Most of the RB jobs are incredibly expensive and don't seem to work well, and the HP/$ figure is pretty weak compared to other options. 1J and 2J swaps make more power, for less money, with more reliability. Most people seem to do RB for the fanboy factor, just so they can say they have a skyline engine. Do some searching(like, calling around and talking to people who've done it, not just google) on US RB swaps and you don't see too many budget builds going well. Most of the swaps running well were done for lots of money by good shops.

in case you're curious, my roommate's project went like this:

he started looking for a CA18 swap, but since barely anyone here does anything with the CA, most shops don't get good prices on motorsets, and internet suppliers have a mostly dodgy reputation, so he avoided that. an SR swap consistently quoted to be less than a CA swap, but he didn't want to have just another 240 with an SR, so he started looking for bigger engines. He looked at V8s, but the conversion kits are expensive, and so are the engines if you're looking at anything recent. Then he looked into RBs, but ran into the problems I've mentioned, the most troubling being the lack of parts available stateside. If something went wrong he'd most likely need to wait for some part to be shipped from japan. Then he came across the 1J swap, and the quote he's got is $5000-$6000 for everything done, depending on what parts he chooses. They've got the mounting kit and engine in, just waiting in the wiring and ECU. Most of his aftermarket stuff is already here AFAIK.

Myself, if I still had my old S14, it would probably have the stock KA in it still.

 

[Redliner]

I just remembered something: zenkidori, you owe us videos of your RX-7! I wanna hear it!

 

[Banii]

Wankel for president!

 

[kaBOOMn]

::everything below is AFAIK, so don't freak out if you aussies know more than me, I'm sure you do::

The toyota motor needs the toyota ECU and a $200 wiring job, plus mounts. The RB needs more extensive wiring for some reason, and a standalone, as far as anyone here knows anyway. Are you saying that you can just splice the RB in like an SR swap? or do you guys even know about SR swaps since the cars you got already had those, or a CA, not a KA?

Not Quite, as with most engine swaps its a simple matter of re-doing the body interface harness plugs (both of them). Its the same with any engine swap. You keep the actual engine harness as it and change only what you need to. Normally the only other thing I do when I mod a Nissan loom is move the "consult" plug directly onto main engine harness.

Some cars require a tacho interface box (eg single coil to multicoil) or modding a resistor on the actual tacho unit. Depends on the engine, and the car its going into. I had make a tacho intergrator cct when I put a R33 computer with the multicoil ignition drives into my car (new head you see)

We did get the U12 Pintara with a KA24, and this may shock you put some people ditch their SR20's and goto KA24's with a large hairdryer on them. A better (and easier) swap is a RB. R32/A31 crossmember, new exhaust, thermofans a few subtle changes to the engine loom.....problem solved.

I am curious to know what Nissan parts you think would fit an RB. You can go to your local corner auto part store and get parts for a 1J or 2J, but not with an RB. AFAIK we never even got a car with an RB here. Maybe stuff like a water pump or alternator, but gaskets and seals I don't really think so. Just because something is made here doesn't mean you can go down to napa and buy it.

Why don't you try GM part numbers? 8) Who was the motor (partly) designed for?

Water pump I'm not sure of, but things like electronic idle valves, injectors, throttle sensors, Oxygen sensors, alternator, thermostat are all found on motors sold in the US. So whats the beef?

(I'll look through my notes to see if a Z32 coil pack and CAS is the same as a RB one.....)

All I know is what I've observed by talking to my roommate about his swap, and viewing other completed swaps here. Most of the RB jobs are incredibly expensive and don't seem to work well, and the HP/$ figure is pretty weak compared to other options. 1J and 2J swaps make more power, for less money, with more reliability. Most people seem to do RB for the fanboy factor, just so they can say they have a skyline engine. Do some searching(like, calling around and talking to people who've done it, not just google) on US RB swaps and you don't see too many budget builds going well. Most of the swaps running well were done for lots of money by good shops.

I'll stand by my first comment of Americans and RB's. Maybe the laws of physics change when they get them over there? :lol:

in case you're curious, my roommate's project went like this:

he started looking for a CA18 swap, but since barely anyone here does anything with the CA, most shops don't get good prices on motorsets, and internet suppliers have a mostly dodgy reputation, so he avoided that. an SR swap consistently quoted to be less than a CA swap, but he didn't want to have just another 240 with an SR, so he started looking for bigger engines. He looked at V8s, but the conversion kits are expensive, and so are the engines if you're looking at anything recent. Then he looked into RBs, but ran into the problems I've mentioned, the most troubling being the lack of parts available stateside. If something went wrong he'd most likely need to wait for some part to be shipped from japan. Then he came across the 1J swap, and the quote he's got is $5000-$6000 for everything done, depending on what parts he chooses. They've got the mounting kit and engine in, just waiting in the wiring and ECU. Most of his aftermarket stuff is already here AFAIK.

Myself, if I still had my old S14, it would probably have the stock KA in it still.

I think its great you have a Toyota motor for it, its wierd and diffrent (well here it would be) I just can't understand your logic and reasoning for going that way. Wierd.

 

[zenkidori]

I just remembered something: zenkidori, you owe us videos of your RX-7! I wanna hear it!

all I have is an MP3 of the exhaust when it was running like shit.

Why don't you try GM part numbers? 8) Who was the motor (partly) designed for?

Water pump I'm not sure of, but things like electronic idle valves, injectors, throttle sensors, Oxygen sensors, alternator, thermostat are all found on motors sold in the US. So whats the beef?

(I'll look through my notes to see if a Z32 coil pack and CAS is the same as a RB one.....)

Yeah, or you could just go down to the parts store on the corner and say to the retard behind the counter, "I need this" and go home, rather than track everything down at different places, make special orders and dealers etc.

I'll stand by my first comment of Americans and RB's. Maybe the laws of physics change when they get them over there? :lol:

Maybe the wiring for the KA cars is too different? After all, we have different emissions equipment, the cars never came turbo here, etc. You need to do some wiring for the SR as well, so maybe it's just that different? I'm not sure, I'm just tossing ideas out, but the only swaps I've seen running well were running standalone EMS.

Maybe it's just that there aren't too many people who know how to do the wiring, and shops are just trying to sell people standalones. You can send your SR harness to a million different places for like $250 to get the wiring done, I dunno if you can do that with the RB here or not.

Maybe it's just the fact that not many people or shops here are very experienced with the motor. It's not a very popular swap, you can't throw a rock in the lot of a drift event without hitting an SR powered S-chassis, but the RB is more expensive for just the motorset, parts aren't easily available here(shops stock aftermarket parts on the shelf for SRs and we got NA SR20s in a few cars, so you can get maintenance stuff anywhere) and apparently nobody can make them run well without a standalone.

if you could give me some info on the RB ECU that would be awesome. I'd like to show my roommate that what he was told about everything being tied into the ECU was BS if it really was. It seemed to make sense at the time, given the swaps we'd seen done before.

I think its great you have a Toyota motor for it, its wierd and diffrent (well here it would be) I just can't understand your logic and reasoning for going that way. Wierd.

The logic is pretty simple, it came down to money, parts, reliability, and tunability. There are more people here experienced with tuning the 1J/2J and everything is cheaper. You can take these engines to most local shops and have it tuned for 500-600HP and it'll run forever. Most people just don't think about it, since it's a cross-make swap, but lately I've been hearing a lot of people talk about it, especially locally since people have gotten wind of my roommate's swap.

 

[BigDaveDogg]

anyone who doesn't know WTF they are doing is a "kid" to me. I'm only 23 so I'm not really referencing age. There are a lot of people coming from hondas and getting into nissans and mazdas thanks to the explosion of drifting, a lot of wannabe takumi losers who have no idea WTF they are doing, and that's who I'm referencing most of the time. I'm sure your buddy's car is nice and runs well, but I'm also sure he paid a fuckton for it to get that way, and he's probably not the normal bandwagon fanboy, or at least paid someone who isn't the normal bandwagon boy to do it. for every nice RB swap you see there are at least 50 that run like shit. IMO it's probably the most overrated swap, EVER.

rx7club sucks dick BTW.

Yeah I knew what you were refering to by saying, "kids" I was refering to that in the same way. There is a lot of $ in his car, and between him and I we've sourced a lot of nice parts for it. Anything beyond our ability (specifically tuning) is done by a reputable shop (AMS.) He's definitely no bandwagon guy, and he'd be running the same car even if the RB26DETT and the car it comes from wasn't the epitome car of posers. If you're on any of the Nissan forums, you've probably definitely seen his posts. I'll agree they're a bit overrated, but only because of the sort of status they've become amongst n00bs. I'll post up some pics if anyone cares to see, also you can keep your eyes peeled for its feature in Modified in '08.

I've heard that about rx7club quite a bit, but it's all good because I don't frequent that forum. I joined a long time ago when I had an interest in FDs.

I'll stand by my first comment of Americans and RB's. Maybe the laws of physics change when they get them over there? :lol:

Easy on the overgeneralization about Americans and this particular engine. I hope you're not getting the impression from just one or even a handful of guys. There are a lot of people and shops with their shit together running RBs with success.

I'd like to see pics of your setup, if you don't mind?

 

[thedguy]

Even Nissans SR20 is very heavy compared to the wonderful lightweight CA18.

Thank you for confirming that bit. You have an idea of of how much both engines weigh in comparison to each other? I've only found 1 source that claimed about 30lbs in same trim (i.e. n/a, turbo, etc...) Funny considering the sr20 is all aluminum and the ca is all iron.

It still boggles my mind why more people don't use the ca18, it's lighter, I've heard it's rather stout, revs higher, and better valve geometry.

 

[Top Geek]

First thing I thought is: isn't the 350z a bit hefty for such a torque-less engine?

 

[awdrifter]

I hate when people put different marque engines in the wrong marque cars.(Chevy V8's into Dodge's/Porsches etc)

Nissan into Datsun is fine, Alfa into Fiat is fine... Mazda into Datsun? Is not fine.

I agree. The S30 Z's came with an inline 6 engine from the factory, so the RB series is a natural choice, and it's not like the RB series engine can't make the hp an rotary can. While it's a cool swap, it's just wrong.

 

[kaBOOMn]

Easy on the overgeneralization about Americans and this particular engine. I hope you're not getting the impression from just one or even a handful of guys. There are a lot of people and shops with their shit together running RBs with success.

I'd like to see pics of your setup, if you don't mind?

No problem man, sorry I'm in the middle of changing the carpet, fixing the aircon system and changing the fan setup, hence why its kinda in a few bits....

https://pic.armedcats.net/2007/11/13/Image026.jpg

This is what its in, and what the RB30 was designed on contract to GMH for....

https://pic.armedcats.net/2007/11/13/Image029.jpg

Sexy blue cam boxes, I'm in the middle of of redoing the crossover pipe from the compressors outlet too hence the grinding marks on it. I've just turfed the stupid Nissan one *sigh* I wish I still had the old holden one

And no its not a 2500, its 3 litres, I have a twincam RB25 head on it complete with multicoil ignition and variable valve timing.

https://pic.armedcats.net/2007/11/13/Image030.jpg

And proof its a RB30 (look at the upper timing belt tensioner and the extra deck height). Its a RB30/25.

apparently nobody can make them run well without a standalone.

Well you've given us something to laugh about over a few beers. You guys can goto the moon, build nuclear weapons and massive aircraft carriers, yet you still can't get a RB to run on a factory management system. Tsk Tsk. :lol:

What do you want to know about the RB computers? And which year and subtype, stuff did change you know. Sorry I do make quite a bit of money out of fixing looms up so I'm not toooo keen to part with all my notes and the like. Don't worry I will help, shoot away.

 

[BigDaveDogg]

You sure you haven't got American genes with that boat of a sedan?

Seriously though, why that engine in such a big car? You have kids or somethin? :?

 

[zenkidori]

It still boggles my mind why more people don't use the ca18, it's lighter, I've heard it's rather stout, revs higher, and better valve geometry.

Reasons my roommate didn't go that way(was his original plan) was that since they aren't popular here, motor sets and swaps cost as much or more than an SR, and replacement parts aren't readily available. Most of the quotes my roommate got were more expensive than SR swaps. I don't know about the strength, he did most of the reasearch himself, but a local guy had a CA running about 316 to the wheels with an S15 turbo, then it popped(don't know specifics) and now he's running an SR with close to 400. It wasn't just some kid, the guy is a very smart tuner and partner in one of the better shops. I don't know if something failed, or he just ran it into the ground so it would pop(not unheard of), but it's gone.

What do you want to know about the RB computers? And which year and subtype, stuff did change you know. Sorry I do make quite a bit of money out of fixing looms up so I'm not toooo keen to part with all my notes and the like. Don't worry I will help, shoot away.

I would just like something I can show my roommate that says the RB26DETT and RB25 don't have a goofy computer. I don't need specifics, he isn't doing the swap anymore, his 1J is already in the shop along with the mounting kit, just ballpark what would be necessary to fit one into a KA equipped car.

 

[kaBOOMn]

You sure you haven't got American genes with that boat of a sedan?

Seriously though, why that engine in such a big car? You have kids or somethin? :?

Uh its exactly the same wheelbase as a R31-R32-R33-R34 Skyline Sedan and only 1265kg......its not a very big car really, think around the same size of a older early 90's Toyota Camry. I suppose if I had a Nissan Cefiro (think a S13 chassis with 4 doors) you'd say the same thing?

Its not a conversion, its what the car came with, a Nissan RB30. It was built like that. GM contracted Nissan to design and supply 3 Litre RB engines to Holden in Australia to put in their VL serries of Commodores. That what I have. I put the twincam head on it, so stave off a few design faults with the single cam heads in regards to cooling.

Anyway its my day to day car that can tow, has a back seat for....stuff and a big boot. the Alfa Romeo and the, uh, "project" are the toys.

 

[BigDaveDogg]

^w0rd...I thought with all your talk of the swaps, that's what it was. I'm clearly not familiar with most of the Australian market.