German Court to Free Woman That Killed US Soldier

[Bad Bowtie]

Before I get on with the replies, I'd just like to say that I've made a point to read all of these latest replies a couple times, as not to miss anything. I'm going to devote 1 post to each, since it'd just be too much for one post.

I do respect everyone's views/beliefs and value opinions of those who can see things from "the other side" which is quite literal in this instance, which is a big reason I come to FinalGear: Perspective...and the best show ever made. Onto the replies...

 

[Bad Bowtie]

Preface to all posts: ABOUT ME:
I am a highly hypocritical person when it comes to certain things, but religion is where I am the worst. As stated previously, I lean Conservative but I would never go to vote and just vote all Republicans in. Truth be told, I don't know what I'm going to do this upcoming election. Not an Obama fan, but I really don't like anyone on the other side either (I also can get off-topic very easily, but you've already noticed that :lol. Being hypocritical allows me to not follow the masses and fall into a category. I am in my own category. I like what I like because it suites me, same goes for what I believe.

As a human being, who very likely wants to be taken serious, you should stop writing such rubbish but get some understanding of how the world functions and maybe also get some idea about history and cause and effect.

I write what I write (and say what I say) because I am a person who likes to get a reaction from people just to learn about them. I had an idea of how what I said would be interpreted, but I won't say "I knew" because there is always a great chance I am wrong. What I said was how a lot of Americans felt. I've looked into joining the military before, so you can understand how I feel about someone attacking my country. I ended up not joining because it did not meet exactly what I wanted to do with my life. With that said, I still have great respect for those that defend our country, and those that defend their own, and still consider joining somewhat often. You are free to disagree with the war being fought, but never be against the troops on the ground. If you aren't behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

No mass murder is justified and terrorism must be fought, let me make that absolutely clear. All I'm saying is, that there is a reason behind it in most cases -- and in some cases, the terror was asked for. The USA are not exactly known to the world for handling things delicately and with foresight, you know...

I understood what you meant and what you were getting at. I was just telling you how it looked from the outside. To me at least, it seemed worded weird. Like I said, I like to get reactions out of people.

I would never argue that we are a force over finesse country. We jump into things before we learn about it and what the repercussions will be. Now, just because I know these things does not mean that I agree with them. On the contrary, I like to learn from mistakes, whether they are mine or others, to better myself. I never said there weren't reasons for what happened to us, I am just saying that action should not have been taken because of those. Or rather, the action that was taken should have been replaced by a more diplomatic approach (though that would be much tougher).

 

[narf]

I never said there weren't reasons for what happened to us, I am just saying that action should not have been taken because of those. Or rather, the action that was taken should have been replaced by a more diplomatic approach (though that would be much tougher).

The exact same thing can be said about the US's reactions to what happened.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

I have had a bit of an internal struggle, but I just have to answer, otherwise this'll just keep me occupied all day. It'll be my last comment, this argument is plain ridiculous, even if you don't realize it. I probably didn't adress all points and created numerous new ones, but I just don't have the time to make this perfectly coherent. I wish I did.

I get off track and run off on my own tangents, so I understand. :lol:

Others have said the same, and I will say it as well. Yes, absolutely and wholeheartedly would I have preferred him to go through the justice process, with all the humiliation, pain and suffering that goes along with it, especially in your country. There are some things that are far worse than death. But then again, your beliefs say that he goes to hell, so how could you understand this.

My beliefs do not follow the Christian/Catholic handbook. I accept that I am a sinner and that I need help. Therefore my beliefs will not always be on point. I do believe there are things worse than death in this life. Rotting in a cell is perfect for the overwhelming majority of criminals and terrorists. To me though, Osama had to go. I am not an Obama fan, but I am VERY proud that he avoided all the bullshit red tape and said if you see him, shoot him. While there are terrible things that can happen to you in life, there are worse things after it is over. I laugh at the fact he won't have his multitude of virgins awaiting him in hell. I am glad he was sent straight to terrible eternity that truly awaited him.

Unless you don't believe in hell, but I'm just going to assume you follow the mainstream ideas. Given that you are a Chevy fan and patriot and some of your replies, I don't think this is far fetched. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So because I live in America, and like American cars, and I have a strong love of my country, that makes me a follower? You said correct you if you are wrong, so now I am going to do that. If a German, who lives in Germany and loves BMW/Merc/Audi/etc. and their country, does that make them a follower as well, or does that way of thinking only apply to Americans. I tried to think of another way you could have meant this, but couldn't come up with one. This is the belief system that I've felt from many people outside of the US. We can be criticized for liking what is our and not liking what is yours, be it our country, political system, cars, whatever.

Like I said before, I follow what suites me. I do not follow the masses because of the numbers. Rather, if my belief and the beliefs of people fall in line, it's just coincidence.

Death is an easy and absolute answer, so is walking away from a conversation. To take a slice from our history, Hitler knew this as well, so he killed himself to not be captured by the Russians. They would have killed him in the end anyways, but who knows what they would have done beforehand.

I see a paradox in what you said. Yes, Hitler killed himself to avoid the Russians, to avoid the horrors that awaited him in this life. Osama knew that if he was captured alive, it would be a very public affair, from the capture to the trial to his imprisonment to his inevitable death. He would not have undergone what Hitler would have. He would have lived a relatively cushy life compared to most prisoners, seeing as his life would be valued, as much as it disgusts me to say, just so he could go through the "justice system."

Would I have liked to see Osama go through what the imprisoned population would do to him? Yes, but I think even Big Bubba's foot long reaming his backside day after day was even to good for this low life. I wanted Osama dead so he could experience true pain in hell. I did not want him dead just so he was no longer on this Earth. I should have clarified that much earlier.

Another thing you probably don't get, given your penchant to believe things are just created, is that there are no such things as random supervillains popping up around the globe, wanting to watch the world burn, more specifically your part of it.

You know what happens when you assume...

My biggest fault with religion is that is rules out evidence right in front of our face. I don't believe in the creationist theory. I delve into the science aspect very deeply, looking at "the other side" and find myself believing that. However, there are certain things science cannot explain, like how order can come from chaos, or how all of the sudden nothing exploded into something. I like the intelligent design theory. It fits both of my beliefs. Sometimes the Bible is taken too literally within the Church. My girlfriend was raised Evangelical and she believes the Creationist theory. She gets mad whenever I ask her the simple question, "are dinosaurs fake since they aren't in the Bible?"

Every human is the culmination of his existence, of his experiences. People don't just believe something out of nowhere, it always has an origin, a reason.

I agree. Obviously this applies for everyone from me to you to Osama. I know that he did not come from nowhere.

Terrorists see plenty of reasons, because you have done and still supply enough.

Our government supplied the reasons, not me and not the people in the towers. The people they really wanted dead were too hard to take out, so they took the easy route and killed the innocent. The only thing they were guilty of was living in America.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated, poor Afghan or Iraqi, who sees people dying for no discernable reason all the time.

They have been given reasons to hate us. It's called propaganda. That is a HUGE factor in my book for why they hate us. By they, I don't mean Osama and his chronies, I mean the Middle East as a whole.

Your country went to war with a whole culture based on one attack.

This should be separate from this paragraph.Should we have waited for a second or third attack to make sure they were serious? One attack is all we needed.

A tragedy, sure, but imagine that happening all the time. And no couch and internet to understand what is happening. Absolutely no wonder they start hating the West.

It's tough, but I don't blame a lot of members of Al Qaeda for joining. They are just going off of the information they get and what they see happen around them. However, a normal person would not go to the extremes they go to "punish" us unless they are coaxed into it by propaganda and have are a total follower.

Another thing you don't seem to understand is reading things carefully. Nobody ever claims that all people can be rehabilitated, the same as some just can't be reasoned with. Some people need to be removed from society for good, but if you can do this without exterminating that existence, why wouldn't you.

Maybe there is still a role for them to play, even if it is just giving interviews and helping people understand their actions. Imagine Osama behind bars, as a source for you to really understand the problem.

I saw a special on the interrogating of Saddam, and that man had a human quality to him. He was almost split personality. We found out a lot about the man from that, and his interrogator even formed a bond with him. Do I think we could learn about Osama if we had kept him? Yes. Do I think some information we get from him would help our understanding of the Middle East and what we can do to help our image over there? Yes. Do I believe it would be worth it in the end, or is any more valuable than someone else? Maybe only slightly. In my book, it wasn't worth and I'd rather him be rotting in hell.

Not just his porn collection, which was a big hit for your country as well.

Fact or not, talk about unnecessary. Couldn't help yourself, could you?

Ever heard of cultural relativism? It's fine if East Asian cultures number their houses by the order they were built in, but don't excuse looting with it just being your culture. Doesn't that sadden you, that you have a culture of looting, if no armed police are around? Sorry to say this, but what the fuck is that? Time for a rethink, maybe?

Where the hell did you see that I excused looting? Massive reading comprehension fail there. Did you miss where I said it was pathetic and disgusting? That right there means that I do not condone or excuse what happened. I am showing that culture is a huge influence on who you are and how you act. To answer your question, yes, it saddens me. Those people are an embarrassment to the rest of us.

So you are more of an old testament christan. That's cool. Religion is so maluable and undefined nowadays, I guess you can combine even the most contradicting believes without worry.

Although I feel that you are trying to make a dig there, it's true. I have some very contradictory beliefs. I really shouldn't call myself a Catholic (even though I went to Catholic grade and high school) , rather just a Christian with my own beliefs. As previously stated, I fall into my own category.

To the point, you said it yourself, some people are just too dangerous to be set free. But I don't see that as a reason to end them, just to confine them. But that is more expensive, so bullets it is. Severity of "punishment" increases with the severity of crime is a given. Noone argues that. But punishment has its useful limits. You can't oversolve a problem, once the criminal is gone he/she is gone. Be that by locking them away, rehabilitating them, or is this case their struggle ceasing to exist. Or a combination.

Unlike most people in corrections or government, I do not have a God complex. I don't feel I have power over who lives and who dies. However, I do believe that I am entitled to my opinion on whether I think they should die or not. As stated, in most cases, I am against the death penalty.

Here we have that oversimplification again. Don't be stupid. I know, because I have lived a bit longer than that, what 15 or 20 years can do to you. People always change, unless they are in the same environment. If you were in jail for that time, I think you would change a fair bit. I'm sure I would. Humans have survived because of that trait, reacting to their environment. Your test "idea" I won't even comment.

The person who I was responding to said, "I?d rather have some people potentially walk the streets too early again than have the american way of justice." Well, he said "some", so what I was getting at is where is the line drawn? If you rape 1 child once, should you be allowed to walk free again? How about if you rape 1 child hundreds of times? It's still only 1 child right, so do the number of times he did it count against him when he is up for parole?

The gas prices? Armchair-fucking-mentality. Anybody could live in any western culture without problems. Most of Asia as well. Maybe you don't like certain aspects of it, but other than ideological bullshit, we're basically the same. I could live in the States, but I like Europe because it's tightly knit. I like flying two hours and having the choice of London, Paris, Vienna, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw etc. Its actually the reason I went back to Germany.

Obviously I could survive in Europe, but that wasn't the point. I would be very unhappy in the European countries that I know best (not saying all because I know know enough about every country to make a blanket statement).

Taxes are higher in certain places.
Most of Europe is too far left for me. It may be "ideological bullshit" but that is part of what defines why we like where we live.
As stupid as it sounds, cars are a big deal for why I couldn't live over there, in certain countries. My Camaro had no cats, all emissions shit removed, could be heard from 2 miles away on a silent night, all of which was highly illegal, yet it would pass inspection because I know people. I live in a very cop heavy area, and I never once got asked or pulled over about my exhaust. Had I put a big cam in it, it would have been even worse, I have friends that have done so, yet no issue from the police. I can't see that happening in Europe, since from what I've seen on this site, emissions is a BIG deal there. I've been meaning to start a thread about modified cars in Europe, need to get around to it.

And on that point:
This one got me a bit emotional.
I lived in Canada for 6 years, starting August 2001. Ottawa 2 years, Halifax 4. I was very fortunate to be in a private boarding school in the middle of the diplomatic residence area (Ashbury College, if you want to look it up). I remember almost every minute of that September 11th. I remember how one Russian student came into our PE class, and told us a plane had flown into one of the WTC towers. We were like, yeah right. 30 mins later, things started getting serious. People were crying everywhere, watching screens in disbelief, trying to reach their parents on an overloaded cellphone network. I remember the catatonic girl who had lost her parents an hour ago. And I will never forget. There was no culture difference, EVERYONE was just... trying to hold together. I was as close as 99.9% of Americans to the disasters, and I felt their pain, every last bit of it. I also met my first great love on that day, so I also remember some positives.

As long as you are a compassionate citizen of the world, 9/11 effected you. It just left everyone, everyone but the FDNY and NYPD, with their jaw hanging wide open and frozen still.

That doesn't mean it had the same effect. Those were people from my country, jumping to their death and being burned alive while doing nothing other than trying to make a living for themselves and their family. You didn't have to know someone in the towers or pentagon to feel hurt and traumatized by 9/11. It's just one of those things you can't explain to someone, you just had to be HERE. As stupid as it sounds, just being close doesn't make it the same.

What I also remember is the hate that started spewing out after Bush's adress to the nations, and how they started generalizing a whole culture right from the start. I remember a middle eastern student who was curb stomped shortly after, because of the way he looked. 3 weeks hospital for him. The school orchestra (which I was a part of) went to NY in February 2002 to play in Carnegie Hall, so unlike most US citizens I actually stood right by the big, gaping hole that was left. I still feel the little hole that picture left in me.

While I didn't see much of that at the time, since I was young, I have seen bits of it since then. I remember, being only 12 years old at the time, not trusting the Arabs down the street, or anywhere I went. I didn't hate them, but considering what happened, and HOW they went about it, you can't blame someone for feeling a bit uneasy. Again, just because the government does something doesn't mean we all agree with it. It's terrible to discriminate and I feel horrible about what happened to Muslims and Arabs around the country and world for that matter, but you can't change what happened.

What I have heard about G-dub is that while he wasn't the smartest guy you'll meet, he played dumb to an extent to get away with things, which worked VERY well. I'll have to find the articles I read on it, it was a very good read. It will definitely give you more perspective on him, but that doesn't take away from the massive brain farts he had.

Was interrupted by an offer for a $5 Rolex though. NY for you.

Really? Again with the unnecessary?

And in light of all that:
Osama deserved to be brought to justice. And I give you a smile, I give you feelings of relief or even happiness. That's all perfectly fine. After 10 years of fighting, conquest and searching, you finally got your prize, so good for you.
But dancing on the street? USA USA, as if this was some kind of sports event. You didn't win. But beneath all that, I know what group mentality is like, lies the core problem, which is signified by a picture:

Sports events are a game. This was much more than that. I'd argue that this IS the type of thing that should be celebrated as it was, rather than a bunch of guys that can play a child's game better than others.

Other than you supporting one and not the other, so your ethnocentric viewpoint, there is no difference. None.

There is a fine line, but in certain circumstances, there are differences. It's not as black and white as you make it, but there isn't much gray either. I will give you that. Going on the offensive to attack others as happened on 9/11, that is cowardly and not the same. Now those members of al qaeda out on the battlefield actually fighting in a conventional warfare setting for what they believe in, and more importantly, fighting against those who set out to kill them and not killing the innocent...those are the people that fall into the same boat. Soldiers are soldiers, but the cowards do not count.

And neither is there a difference between people dancing in the streets yelling Allah Allah after terrorist attacks, which you condemn heavily, and what you did. None. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but everyone not taking part sure does.
What you are doing is exactly the same that causes your blood to boil when the other guys do it, perpetuating hatred. And it is just the same with the "an eye for an eye" philosophy, it just perpetuates a bad situation. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Gandhi

You are making a colored situation black and white. Osama targeted and kill thousands of innocent civilians. We killed the man responsible for all of that, and making people of the world feel unsafe in travel, or in the company of others that look like him. While on the outside they are pretty much the same, you are totally overlooking the reasons behind them.

German example- People celebrated when Hitler was killed, was that wrong? I mean, he was just fighting for what he thought was right. He killed innocent people just the same.

Final comments:
You know why America as a whole is doing not so well right now and your people want to go back to the past? It's not because the world changed, or that things are more difficult now than they were before. It's because you are not doing what is right anymore, but what is easy. That's what made the US great, doing things because they were difficult and would lead to greater things. Solving your debt crisis demands some tough choices, which you are unwilling or unable to make. Generalizing is easy, so all Muslims bad. Faith is easy. Immigrants are bad is easy. Celebrity gossip is easy. Getting fat is easy. Polling is easy. Saying "Majority rules" is easy. "Eye for an eye" is easy.

Best paragraph of your post. I agree with pretty much everything in it. What kept echoing in my mind was one of my favorite quotes of all time, and which I believe can right our ship.

"...not because they are easy, but because they are hard..."

LITERALLY PERFECT. Talk about profound. That is what America is truly about, and what we need to get back to.

Upholding your values of justice and forgiveness is hard when your "enemy" doesn't follow them. Very hard. If someone was to kill a person I cared about in front of me, I don't assume to know what would happen. Maybe my anger and hate would win over me. But that would be a mighty personal failure, and I try my hardest not to fail myself. Serving justice to a murderer is hard. Allowing for the possibility of change and encouraging it I find easy, but I guess it can be hard. Caring for a person that doesn't care for you is hard. Being good is hard.

Yes, it is hard. However, I feel what he got was just and right. I know that is wrong is the religious sense, but like I said, I accept that I am a sinner.

You may say that I'm just some elitist, pansy-assed socialist, because I don't yell "Fuck yeah!" everytime someone pulls out a gun. Or that I'm doomed and unworthy anyways, because I don't believe in ludicrous fairytails. I've had my fair share of fights and pain (emo. & phys.), feared for my life, fired numerous guns (Desert Eagle .50 AE hurts like a bitch), I had 10 years of religion classes and evangelical kindergarten before that. I've been to over 20 different countries, not just on the beach. 18 years of education. I've been through the process long enough, I've seen all the sides and I think I'm on the right track to be a good human being.

I wouldn't call you any of that. The gun thing made me LOL for real though, that's just an American thing. This was exactly the type of response I was hoping for, and I hope more people can bring their thoughts to the table in the same manner. Thanks.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

Well said but I hope you aren't so optimistic to believe it will all be read and internalized. Remaining ignorant and blind towards inconvenient truths is, after all, the easiest thing of them all.

Don't be such a downer. Assumptions don't get you far...

[/quote]I cannot help but think, that the way the OP chose the headline for this thread, also added a lot to the heat of the discussion. I think it's not a really bad guess, that the discussion would have been different, if she had killed a French, Italian, Spanish, Russian or German soldier.

Probably the thread wouldn't exist at all then.[/QUOTE]

I know I wouldn't have reacted the same, but that's because if it's something closer to your heart, you naturally will get a bit heated. Don't take this as American arrogance, because IT IS NOT INTENDED THAT WAY, but even from when my dad and brother went to Europe last year for a soccer lol camp, America is still a big time headliner. Some over here make ourselves out to be more important than we really are in the world, but then again, some Europeans like to try to make us less important than we really are. Let's face it, the existence of America the course of history forever, for better or for worse, and impacts BILLIONS of lives daily. When the US markets took a dive, what happened to Europe? So we are tied economically, but even down to something as small (or large however you see it) as shipping out millions of tons of food and clothes, as well as basic services to those who need it around the globe. Therefore, like it or not, you're going to hear about us and from us. We are a very bombastic and outspoken country, it's just in our blood.

*note I never said we are the best, blah blah blah, that kind of stuff.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

I will earn negrep for this..

For your opinion? You shouldn't, unless someone is that insecure. On the contrary, I'll give you and the others I'm replying to some good rep simply because it was stated in a way that makes for a good conversation, not an argument.

In case you wondered: Jetsetter (and some others) seems to like discrediting other nations than his by pointing out their "inferior" systems, they basically are what the Ferrari fans are to the F1 section.
However, there are also a lot of reasonable Americans in here, which generally gives me hope in humanity. Sadly though, many of these "patriots" seem to see America's biggest achievement lately in being attacked by Osama, because they justify everything they do with it. "You started an illegal war" "Well we got attacked by Osama", "You have your rights as citizens taken away" "Well we got attacked by Osama", "You execute prisoners" "Well we got attacked by Osama". I remember a time when they referred to their real history....... I guess it has something to do with the fear of America's shield of invincibilty suddenly penetrated by some "inferior" desert people. You just don't seem to be used to the theory that you just aren't safe from losing wars (Vietnam, anyone?) or getting attacked on your home turf, something all European nations already experienced (WW1,2, IRA, RAF, ETA, Greenpeace). Maybe this even aided the development of our nations, as we learnt from it, but all some of you want to do is go batshit crazy, shoot everyone that remotely looks like he doesn't like you, torture prisoners of war even without trials and violate every treaty on warfare in existence.

As you stated further down, we don't necessarily believe what the government does is right, same goes for the masses of idiots. I'm not against the Patriot Act though, but I'm not entirely for it.

And ruin your country in the meantime with all the spending.

Talk to President Spend-us-into-oblivion about that. God he pisses me off.

And then you wonder again, why does noone like you any more? How can they not like a nation so charming?

It's easier to remember the bad more than the good. We did feel very vulnerable, thus causing the typical America knee-jerk reaction.

It really gives me hope that 99% of the Americans I met IRL or especially here on FinalGear are NOT like what I described above put perfectly sane people who do realize that not everything a government does it what the people want.

What do you expect, the most extreme ends of the spectrum make the headlines. us common-folk in the middle that you don't hear about in the headlines make up more of our country than what most of you see. We're not all lazy, we're not all fat. we're not all stupid, etc. That's just what you get from media: generalizations and blowing things out of proportion.

And that not everything is better than what other countries produce just because it has a "Made in the USA" label.

Painful to admit, but it's true. However, I don't like how it's become quite the opposite, at least to those outside the country. Nothing wrong with having a little national pride though. Everyone WANTS their nation's things to be the best. Whether they are or not is another story.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

What's the point of a discussion if people don't disagree?

I never said we can't disagree, or he was wrong. Opinions are what make discussions fun.

Yeah, but one doesn't exclude the other, you know.

True.

Well, I've never hated the US. I've hated some US foreign policy.

That is what most people really feel.

If I were alive and adult during Vietnam, I'd opose it. I did opose the Iraq war (and even once made the argument that the war was a war of agression, which is in itself a war crime by the instigating party), but I supported Afghanistan.

What can I say, we can get away with things because of who we are. That doesn't make it right though. I am 1,000% behind our troops always. I am 110% behind the war in Afghanistan...Iraq, well I didn't think it was best to further our "war-monger" stereotype, but I did like that we got Saddam out.

I don't think the US has acted even close to wisely towards Israel, giving the nation way too much leaway, leading to a lot of the problems we're experiencing today.

I don't like the US arrogance, feeling above it all. I don't like the fact that the US talks about freedom, forgetting about Senator McCarthy.

Arrogance is in our blood. Look where we came from. To gain our freedom, we beat the best at the world in their own game. Ever since then, we have been the best...until somewhat recently we have fallen into mediocrity, and trust me, that is VERY painful to say.

To mention a few things.

However, Europeans don't hate the US. We're ambivilant towards it. We find you a little vulgar, sometimes arrogant on the world stage. And some might even have a little bit of inferiority complex.

We are arrogant on the world stage, there is no sometimes about it. I am perfectly fine with people not liking us. You can't win everyone over.

But we don't hate you.

Good to know.

Is there anything that suggests that it's a deterrant? If I'm not mistaken, crime was pretty rampant during the bloody code (you could be hanged for stealing property more expensive than 12 pence), and I don't think I've heard of it working.

I can't speak to actual evidence, but it's a nice belief to have. No real way of proving it though, since if it works, the person about to commit the crime decided against it.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

As a Catholic you probably are familiar with the phrase "You shall not kill".
As soon as the criminal is apprehended, locking him away forever sufficiently protects society from him - no need for an exception of the commandment.

Told you I'm a hypocrite. As I've said in other posts, it is my personal belief that certain people are just no fit to share the same air as you and I.

That's why the parole decision is a tad more complicated than asking the prisoner if he's a good boy now.

The German standards for life sentences you mention do not say "You're rehabilitated after serving X years". You need to convince a court that you won't commit any more serious crimes. They'll examine every detail of your known life.

Someone you described, devoting his life to killing, will not succeed with his parole application. That's what a legal system is for.

I'm lumping this all together. The bits you were replying to were more nonsensical fr the sold purpose of making a point.

You didn't invent capital punishment after 9/11.

I'm assuming there's more meaning that just what you said, obviously, but I don't get it. Care to dumb it down?

FTFY.

Iseewhatyoudidthere.

The exact same thing can be said about the US's reactions to what happened.

Please explain to me how diplomacy works in catching terrorists. I mean, we are "allies" with Pakistan, yet the world's most wanted man was hiding in plain sight. Diplomacy obviously doesn't work in catching terrorists.

*say what you want, but I would be willing to bet Pakistan knew he was there, but that's another issue*

 

[Bad Bowtie]

Ok, I lied. I thought I knew how to give rep on this site, but I was wrong. Help teh newb.

 

[GRtak]

The asterisk under your name.

 

[nomix]

I never said we can't disagree, or he was wrong. Opinions are what make discussions fun.
Indeed.

What can I say, we can get away with things because of who we are. That doesn't make it right though. I am 1,000% behind our troops always. I am 110% behind the war in Afghanistan...Iraq, well I didn't think it was best to further our "war-monger" stereotype, but I did like that we got Saddam out.

We got him out. But we haven't fixed Iraq. And I don't think it'll work for a very long time. Time will show.

Arrogance is in our blood. Look where we came from. To gain our freedom, we beat the best at the world in their own game. Ever since then, we have been the best...until somewhat recently we have fallen into mediocrity, and trust me, that is VERY painful to say.

It's sad to see America in the state she is in now. It's hard to pinpoint an exact problem.

We are arrogant on the world stage, there is no sometimes about it. I am perfectly fine with people not liking us. You can't win everyone over.

Yeah. But you'll get attacked for it. And not just with words. Not to mention it in itself will make you a less powerful nation given time.

I can't speak to actual evidence, but it's a nice belief to have. No real way of proving it though, since if it works, the person about to commit the crime decided against it.

You can look at numbers. And the amount of murders does not decrease when you introduce capital punishment into society. I can't think of one occation when it has. Or increase when you abolish it. I can't tell you what's true, but I can tell you what I think. I think wether or not you can be executed for murder has very little to do with how many murders are comitted. It just doesn't make any difference what-so-ever. And you end up killing people who's innocent. It's a rubbish system.

 

[narf]

I'm assuming there's more meaning that just what you said, obviously, but I don't get it. Care to dumb it down?

The essence I gathered from your post was "We have the right to kill people because of 9/11, see OBL as an example.". My point was, you were killing people long before 9/11 happened.

This discussion is about the question "We've captured some murderer. A court has found him guilty. What do do with him?". Long before 9/11 the US's answer has often been "Wait a bit, then kill him.".
The murder of OBL is quite different. You didn't even give him a fucking trial.

 

[Bad Bowtie]

The murder of OBL is quite different. You didn't even give him a fucking trial.

...which is exactly what the rest of the world, as well as plenty of people in America would want. I've made it clear I don't like Obama. He spends too much and his jump shot is atrocious, but the man made the absolute best call for the situation in saying "shoot on site." Red tape? No thanks, we'll just avoid that. Good job Mr. Obama, good job.

Like I've said before, I don't believe any murderer should get the death penalty. It should be reserved for a seldom few, but never abolished.

 

[That American Girl]

Strange, I feel the sudden urge to copy and paste, what I wrote above.

I understand what you mean, I think.. But here's why I disagree:

I guess our foaming American friends must learn to accept, that the concept of punishment for a crime doesn't necessarily have to be based on revenge but also on rehabilitation and allowing a second chance, if the convict shows true remorse and has changed his/her lifestyle during the time in prison.

(snip)

But if the person changed, shows true remorse, dissociated herself from her former radical views and used her time in prison in a productive way, for example making a Ph.D. and can still lead a normal life afterwards, why not?

Why not? Because the punishment for what she did is just that, punishment. Not a 'time out' so you can go to the corner like a child and 'think about what you've done mister!'

And she used taxpayer dollars to study in her obvious spare time and got a degree? So what?

It's not just about the people she killed, but it's about her willingness to be part of a group that was doing this for years.

This wasn't a case of "Oops, my bad. Dang, how'd that happen? But I'm really sorry, so can I go home now?"

Rehabilitation for someone who cheated on their taxes, or did something stupid that killed someone on accident is one thing. Doing something terrible in the heat of passion and then honestly showing remorse might be a case for possibly being let out. It really depends on the circumstances.

What she did was waaaaay different.

"Oh yeah...sorry about that. I'm really sorry, and I um...promise never to kill people in a bombing attack again. Honestly." ...just doesn't fly with me.

same here

Attempted murder is sentenced differently from murder for very good reasons - such as not having got people killed.


Congratulations, you've just made 1984 look like a children's book. If you want to punish thought crimes and criminal minds, you'll end up "locking people away and throwing away the key" for saying that they could murder a sandwich.

'Punish thought crimes and criminal minds'? Um, actually we do. And no, I'm not talking the "1984" way.

I'm not talking about the random thoughts we all have every day. Who here hasn't at one time been in traffic and been cut off and thought "Oh Holy Hell!! Die dammit!"?

Thats not exactly the same as people who plan terrorist attacks sometimes years in advance, or those who plan on murdering a spouse and do the same.



I know there's no prefect solution to the "capital punishment" argument. I could argue for both sides all day. But in my opinion, there are just some crimes that are so terrible that no matter how sorry you are, you have lost all rights to be a free person.


Again, just my opinion.

 

[GRtak]

Isn't it better for society to reform the person than to merely punish? If we did this to children (no attempt to reform bad behavior), we would have messed up kids. We can all identify messed up kids and we look at the bad parents that molded the child to be a screw up. Isn't that what the American prisons do to our prisoners? And then it spreads to their kids, and then their kids, etc. etc.. And before you know it you have a fairly messed up society.

 

[That American Girl]

Isn't it better for society to reform the person than to merely punish?

Absolutely. And I know these are gross exaggerations and very simplistic, but...

First scenario: This kid is a bonnafide gang banger. He's done petty theft, dropped out of school, made a couple of babies that he doesn't support, he drinks, and maybe does drugs. Hangs out at his moms house all day being a little punk. The kid of person who you'd see on the street and think "What a waste."

But, he's finally picked up for something minor, and he sees what life would be like in prison and is lucky enough to see what a dumbass he's been. He serves his short sentence and does what his parole officer says. He stops drinking (mostly), stays away from drugs, apologizes to his mom daily, and gets a job. Even if it's just a minimum wage, part time thing. He owns up to his kids, even starts paying something to their care. Not much but hey. Avoids the gangs and somehow manages to get his GED.

He's not citizen of the month, and will never father of the year, but does what he can to not be a dumbass anymore. To me, this is what 'Reform' means.

(I know it's an extreme example but bear with me)

Scenario two: Average guy who had an okay childhood and is now out in the real world. Is unhappy with something. Maybe it's politics, maybe he thinks he didn't get a job for some reason, maybe he's upset about the new Twilight movie, maybe his weird take on religion says it's the end of the world. One day he says "Screw it..." and makes plans to really show the world how pissed he is. Makes some kind of bomb and blows up and kills maybe 20 people.

He gets caught, is sentenced and is a good little boy while in prison. After 25 years he tells the Judge that "He's really very sorry, and he really really promises he wont do it again. Promise."

And you know what? Should I care that he's sorry now? Just because he's been good while in prison doesn't prove to me that's he's reformed. And yeah, I have to admit that while in prison he hasn't murdered any more people, and he hasn't built any more bombs. Thats a bit different than committing petty crimes.

Everyone deserves a second chance, to a point.

Committing terrorist acts doesn't happen on a whim. Many of these people have plenty of time to change their minds, or to think about what they're going to do before they do it. If someone was planning to commit this crime for lets say a year before they do it...to me, they've had 365 days to get up and really think about what they were going to do.

They had plenty of chances already in my mind.

If we did this to children (no attempt to reform bad behavior), we would have messed up kids. We can all identify messed up kids and we look at the bad parents that molded the child to be a screw up.

Not, I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but having fucked up parents is for the most part, no excuse.

I personally know many people who came from homes that were less than pleasant, shall we say. I have two female friends who were molested as kids, one by her own father (the bastard). Another buddy who now lives out of state was abandoned by his drug addicted mother numerous times as a child. Social Services kept giving him back to her for Lord knows why...and he told me more than once, the only time he really had a decent meal was when he went to school during the day. He was also physically abused.

I could go on and on, but you know what? None of them turned out to be monsters. My two female friends have admitted that they have trust issues, but neither of them have gone ape-shit and attacked any guy that I'm aware of.

My buddy J (from above) who has every reason to be completely mental is happily married and has a kid. Went to college and all that. Pretty much normal.

Yeah, some of us had shitty childhoods, but as adults we still have to abide by the same rules as everyone else.

Isn't that what the American prisons do to our prisoners?

I agree that many of our prisons are hell-holes. And I cant even imagine what I'd do if I had to go there. So you know what? I don't do crap that will land me in there.


Again, just my opinion.

 

[GRtak]

While I agree that having fucked up parents is no excuse, it does make life a lot harder when you don't know how to be any different.

 

[That American Girl]

While I agree that having fucked up parents is no excuse, it does make life a lot harder when you don't know how to be any different.

Agreed. I wish I had a good answer, but...we can only do what we can do.

 

[nomix]

Like I've said before, I don't believe any murderer should get the death penalty. It should be reserved for a seldom few, but never abolished.

That would make it unusual. It's already cruel.



As for having fucked up parents, it's part of the reasoning behind many thinking of many criminals as victims themselves. That's often misunderstood as a defense of their actions, or even as if people thought they were also a victim of the crime they commit. That's not accurate. The point of the argument is that a fucked up childhood does make you a life long victim, and that many victims act out. It's not even nessesarily a question of the said criminal realising it.

But to ignore it has an effect would be silly. It has. While I am not a general fan of post hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, I think in this case, statistics tell a rather clear tale. Not just fucked up childhoods, low employment usually manifests itself by higher crime figures over night.

So it's not something the social democracies of Scandinavia made up in the 1950s, it's a part of reality.

However, it is not a question of feeling sorry for criminals. It's a question about feeling sorry for society and victims. It's a question of trying to have less crime. You argue that placing young offenders in prison might scare them. And it sometimes does. But look at the reoffender numbers you guys get. There's a reason we call prisons "crime schools", they are full of people who literally teach first offenders or impressionate offenders how to become more effective crims. It's true even in more civilized prison systems, so it's hard to say it's a good idea to risk it with young people.

Anyhow, about capital punishment.

1. It's imoral. We don't have any more right to kill than they do.
2. It has no effect. It's pointless to think of it as a deterrant.
3. It's cruel. And unusual.
4. The system isn't perfect. So the nations with capital punishment kill innocent people all the time. It seems jetsetter has no problem with it, but I do.
5. It corrupts us.

If I have my way, there will never, ever be capital punishment in Europe again. It's just unacceptable.

 

[MacGuffin]

I understand what you mean, I think.. But here's why I disagree:



Why not? Because the punishment for what she did is just that, punishment. Not a 'time out' so you can go to the corner like a child and 'think about what you've done mister!'

And she used taxpayer dollars to study in her obvious spare time and got a degree? So what?

It's not just about the people she killed, but it's about her willingness to be part of a group that was doing this for years.

This wasn't a case of "Oops, my bad. Dang, how'd that happen? But I'm really sorry, so can I go home now?"

Rehabilitation for someone who cheated on their taxes, or did something stupid that killed someone on accident is one thing. Doing something terrible in the heat of passion and then honestly showing remorse might be a case for possibly being let out. It really depends on the circumstances.

What she did was waaaaay different.

"Oh yeah...sorry about that. I'm really sorry, and I um...promise never to kill people in a bombing attack again. Honestly." ...just doesn't fly with me.

Okay, ignoring the polemics, there is a question I want to ask you:

According to your data on the left, you are 41 years old. When you look back on your life, especially when you were younger and unwiser than today, is there nothing you would have better not done or done differently in hindsight? What if for example with 22 years you ran over a child while driving drunk? Wouldn't you say today, that it was a terrible mistake and that you learned your lesson the hard way and shouldn't be punished for the rest of your life? Wouldn't you beg for forgiveness?

This isn't too far off, you know. Hogefeld wasn't drunk but she was indoctrinated. Yes, she committed murder. No one is denying that what she did, was terrible. BUT she recieved her punishment. She was arrested after the Iron Curtain fell, after the was forced to live in former Eastern Germany for years (which alone could be considered severe punishment) and spent many years in prison.

This is not about whether she should be punished or not, because she was punished. This thread is about if she should be punished more.

And here comes the bitter truth for everyone, who thinks it is a particularly devious act of murder to kill a US solder, so how can we dare letting that woman loose:
This is Germany and German judiciary rules here. We learned freedom, human rights and democracy from America, by the way. Our constitution was developed under the watchful eyes of the allied forces.

So sorry, if it all turned out better, than some might have thought back then and find it inconvenient in their reactionary minds today -- but here we are.

According to our laws, our society, our understanding of civilization and humanity, she was punished enough. She turned into a better person and deserves a second chance. Therefore she has been forgiven.

Learn to live with it, because no debate will change that fact. She was the last of the former RAF terrorists still in prison. It's the end of an era. Let's move on.

And these are the final words I will speak in this thread, because I have said everything I wanted to say and there is really nothing I have to add.