How do the British afford to be Car Nuts?

turboswede said:
but for the same money as a Civic Si or Mini Cooper S?I think I will pass.
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Good man. Apparently though someone is buying them up here: I've seen them running around in Bellingham, Seattle, and even North Kitsap.
 
Certainly it is very difficult to compare the US and UK. Also, the US is a very large country, with lots of open space, so in comparison, the UK is like one huge metropolis, meaning cars are needed more in America. But I don't think the additional wages us Brits get are enough to even out the price difference.
 
anti-net said:
It is a bit unfair, however us Europeans do earn more so its all relative. You've got to understand that despite claims Europe and the US are similar, There not. Worlds apart!

We do earn more in Europe, but pay more tax, so really we all earn the same. American cars are more expensive because there not imported in bulk. And as for the European cars been more expensive inside Europe than outside - Well I have no answer for that, but it annoys me.
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I just want to let everyone know that I am not making a judgment call on whether the prices in Europe or the US are ?fair? or not. But I remember back in the 80?s and 90?s that, as a rule, European cars were les expensive in Europe and US cars were cheaper in the states. My dad imported a lot of Camaros to Sweden those years and then would export BMWs and Porsches back to the U.S. It was expensive to bring them to US spec but still profitable.

I wonder if it?s just that crazy exchange rate that would make sense if a typical job in the UK paid 30% more than the same Job in the US. I haven?t seen that kind of parity, an average professional?s salary here in Seattle is around ?50,000 (lawyer, middle management, etc.) while the salary for an industrial worker ranges around ?20,000-?25,000.

This does tie back to my observation on Top Gear that American cars tend to have a hard time competing as they are over priced in the UK. So the Corvette and Mustang feel a little cheap because they are cheap in their home market.
 
argatoga said:
Good man. Apparently though someone is buying them up here: I've seen them running around in Bellingham, Seattle, and even North Kitsap.
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Small world,

That?s true, some people do by them, I guess they are still better than hybrids. Its my deeply held belief that the popularity of hybrids in the US stems from American?s absolute dedication to the automatic transmission and refusal to deal with a manual gearbox.

In the 70?s a rabbit could get 35+ MPG and do 0-60 in 10 seconds (even in US trim)?but not with an automatic.

Oh well, a rant for another Forum.
 
I might add that there are a few European cars being put together in The U.S. as of right now. BMW for instance makes the Z roadsters over here.
 
Yes it is, and they have the great good sense not to have any truck with the EU either so no VAT nonsense. (Correct me if I am wrong upyourego please?)
 
upyourego said:
Actually from what I've been able to find online the average/median household income is about the same in the US and UK - around $44 thousand.

On the lower end of the scale - the minimum wage in the UK is about $10 per hour.

It's not just cars that are more expensive though - most things seem to be a lot more expensive in the UK than the US.

An album costs $17 and a DVD around $23.

Incidentally - in Jersey where I live the average wage is $75 thousand.
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Which DVDS have you been buying. Most of the DVDs I buy over here are between 6-10 pounds which works out at about 10-20 dollars. Maybe a bit more for a TV boxset.
 
Unfortunately its not quite as linear as the cost of the car directly being related to motoring or transport. In the UK there are high levels of taxation drawn throughout in order to pay for the welfare state, free education, and free healthcare; as well as for many other benefits granted from state services and subsides. Therefore the tax you pay on your car will go into the pool of money to provide these services; that said the bigger problem with taxation in the UK is at the pump where its currently around ?1.12 a liter for petrol or almost ?1.30 for diesel, with Roughly 3.8 liters to the US gallons, that?s roughly $8.25 a gallon for petrol or $9.60 a gallon for diesel!

Taking off the tax on the car there?s also the overheads of running a dealership which will have a knock-on effect and the fact that cars are required to be right hand drive, all this adds up.

However as with everything, where you live determines the cost and if cars are where you get your enjoyment you have to get used to paying for it.

PS: (I could also go into the ever increasing road tax, toll roads, congestion charges, insurance costs, servicing and MOT costs etc but im sure people feel sorry enough for us Brits when it comes to cars )
 
Lilleput said:
Major cities mostly have quite good public transport.. Right? I was talking more small town America, from what i saw trains are pretty rare and busses are few and far between. When the subject has been brought up before the consensus is that outside big cities a car is a must.
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When I spent time in Germany and the UK I did not get the impression that public transportation was any better in their small towns compared to the US, but that was a while ago. Densely populated metros in virtually all Western cities worldwide (London, New York, Paris) all have some form of decent public transportation. Cities with less than say 100,000 it is just too expensive and too little used to make any economic sense.
 
Some of you guys are putting way too much emphasis on the exchange rate. Yes, it does have some effect on car prices but there are bigger forces at work that ultimately determine the price of a car in any given part of the world.

Part of the issue here is something that all of you guys seemed to have overlooked. It's simple economics, really, supply and demand. Why do Germans pay more for a BMW in Germany than an American in the US? Well, simply put, because the Germans are willing to pay that amount. The problem is that Europeans in general tend to be very ethnocentric when it comes to purchasing cars. Most of the continent's population simply refuses to shell out for any car made outside the EU (at least in any significant amount anyway). For the longest time, Europeans simply didn't buy American cars for their respective inferiority. Ok, I'll let that one slide. But then, the Japs came along with their efficiency, reliability, and quality and you guys still refused to buy foreign brands in large quantities. What type of message is Europe's car buying public sending to their own manufacturers? "We are willing to pay a higher price for your car than your competitors." In contrast, the US car buying public has shown time and time again, that they are more than willing to pay a lower price for any car manufacturer's product (regardless of country of origin) they deem usable. Simply put, more competition in the US car market means lower prices for everyone. BMW can't afford to ante up the price on their cars because of stiff competition from Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac etc. (Plus Merc and Audi which already compete with each other in their home turf)

This plus the fact that many European countries get taxed up the ass and you have a recepie for "perceived" inequality. Simple economics FTW.
 
I remember thinking about this same subject when Clarkson review the Ford F150. With a price of I think 22 thousand pounds. Roughly $40,000 for a single cab basic truck.

I had just bought a Ford F150 4x4 crew cab for $27,.000 tax and title included.

He was saying noone in England bought them. Well, I don't think we would be buying them here either for that price.
 
It does always amaze me when Clarkson starts comparing a Corvette to a 911. Maybe the comparison makes sense in the UK, but here in Seppo-land, a 911 costs about twice as much as a similar-spec Corvette. Also, the Porsche is a tempermental exotic that must be maintained by a guy name Jurgen who wears white coveralls and has boat payments to make. A Corvette is serviced by your local blacksmith for the price of a toothpick.

Similarly, Clarkson compared the Elise and the Mustang in his video. Here in the US, the Mustang GT is about $15,000-$20,000 less than the Elise. To someone in the UK, the comparison makes sense, allowing the Brits to laugh at the stupid Yanks for buying the Mustang. To someone in the US, the comparison is ridiculous.

Lots of people who work relatively low-paying jobs can afford to use these cars as daily drivers here. Once Brits understand that, you'll begin to understand why we buy them over here.

As others have said, it's different worlds, now particularly skewed because of the ludicrous price of dollars these days. Add the completely different driving conditions, the completely different price of gas and completely different driving habits of consumers and it's best not to think along these lines. If only Clarkson and Co would realize the same thing.
 
Andrewticus said:
Since I have lived in both countries, I have come to the conclusion that automobiles are simply made and priced to be where they are. In small town Italy, Smart Cars would be on the cheap and plentyful, whereas they are quite costly and rare in Dallas, Texas.
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Actually a few months ago one of our local news stations reported that our Smart dealer sold the most in the country up to that point.

And as far as this topic is concerned, in America things are just cheaper on the overall scale of things vs Europe. Petrol, cars, housing, etc. Even in money-thirsty California it doesn't compare to the UK. Still, what bothers me is the constant complaining Americans do about petrol prices. If I hear a complaint I always tell them about the prices in the UK and that usually shuts then up. :D
 
Speedtouch said:
Certainly it is very difficult to compare the US and UK. Also, the US is a very large country, with lots of open space, so in comparison, the UK is like one huge metropolis, meaning cars are needed more in America. But I don't think the additional wages us Brits get are enough to even out the price difference.
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One could argue the same thing about Australia, yet we pay 'euro' for our cars.
 
JCE said:
Still, what bothers me is the constant complaining Americans do about petrol prices. If I hear a complaint I always tell them about the prices in the UK and that usually shuts then up. :D
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Apples and oranges. Americans have every right to complain considering the price of a necessity has gone up 438% in a span of less than six years. Let this happen anywhere else (UK) and I'll guarantee that you'll hear moaning and complaining.
 
watisdis said:
Some of you guys are putting way too much emphasis on the exchange rate. Yes, it does have some effect on car prices but there are bigger forces at work that ultimately determine the price of a car in any given part of the world.

Part of the issue here is something that all of you guys seemed to have overlooked. It's simple economics, really, supply and demand. Why do Germans pay more for a BMW in Germany than an American in the US? Well, simply put, because the Germans are willing to pay that amount. The problem is that Europeans in general tend to be very ethnocentric when it comes to purchasing cars. Most of the continent's population simply refuses to shell out for any car made outside the EU (at least in any significant amount anyway). For the longest time, Europeans simply didn't buy American cars for their respective inferiority. Ok, I'll let that one slide. But then, the Japs came along with their efficiency, reliability, and quality and you guys still refused to buy foreign brands in large quantities. What type of message is Europe's car buying public sending to their own manufacturers? "We are willing to pay a higher price for your car than your competitors." In contrast, the US car buying public has shown time and time again, that they are more than willing to pay a lower price for any car manufacturer's product (regardless of country of origin) they deem usable. Simply put, more competition in the US car market means lower prices for everyone. BMW can't afford to ante up the price on their cars because of stiff competition from Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac etc. (Plus Merc and Audi which already compete with each other in their home turf)

This plus the fact that many European countries get taxed up the ass and you have a recepie for "perceived" inequality. Simple economics FTW.
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I am not sure that ethnocentrism is the reason for the high price of cars in the UK (or Europe for that matter). In Sweden in the late early 90?s my uncle bought a 518i for much less than a 525i in the states, Granted there is a difference in the engines but at the time the Bimmer was selling for $50K in the US while he paid around $30K (in equivalent Krona at the time) for his 5 series. I remember because my Dad bought a Taurus SHO the same year and remarked that the Taurus cost more than Ulf?s 518i.

One thing I do know about the Europe vs. US is that size = $$$, for years companies tried selling compact cars over here that are well equipped and (relatively) expensive and they just never took. Take the Contour/Modeo example, in Europe it was a big hit but over here it was a huge flop because it was not that much less expensive than the Taurus and the Taurus was bigger. Never mind that the Contour was a much better car than the Taurus, size ruled the day.

What I can?t understand is what changed over the past 10-15 years that raised prices in Europe so dramatically while prices have stayed about the same over here.
 
turboswede said:
I am not sure that ethnocentrism is the reason for the high price of cars in the UK (or Europe for that matter). In Sweden in the late early 90?s my uncle bought a 518i for much less than a 525i in the states, Granted there is a difference in the engines but at the time the Bimmer was selling for $50K in the US while he paid around $30K (in equivalent Krona at the time) for his 5 series. I remember because my Dad bought a Taurus SHO the same year and remarked that the Taurus cost more than Ulf?s 518i.

One thing I do know about the Europe vs. US is that size = $$$, for years companies tried selling compact cars over here that are well equipped and (relatively) expensive and they just never took. Take the Contour/Modeo example, in Europe it was a big hit but over here it was a huge flop because it was not that much less expensive than the Taurus and the Taurus was bigger. Never mind that the Contour was a much better car than the Taurus, size ruled the day.

What I can?t understand is what changed over the past 10-15 years that raised prices in Europe so dramatically while prices have stayed about the same over here.
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I didn't say it was the only reason, just part of the whole equation as to why they're more expensive over there. Also, you assume that my example applies to any other time but the present. Remember, Japanese luxury brands came about in the late eighties/early nineties. Obviously then, my theory only applies to a more recent time frame, which by the way helps explain why the price gap has only happened in the last 10-15 years. As for the size thing, that's just Tastes and Preferences. I'm sure that there are many other factors that go into explaing why, but in a world of imperfect information, it's impossible to give an absolute answer.
 
It's simple economics. America has the most competitive car market in the world. If you want to sell your wares there, you need to price to compete.

If you take all the other reasons out of the equation, Australia is a good example of "similar" lifestyles etc to America. We like our big cars, we drive long distances and petrol is relatively cheap (hovering around $1.50/L at the moment, or about 75 pence).

We just don't have the competitive market, or the volume, to justify discounts. We're huge fans of Asian and European cars, but we're significantly more expensive than Europe or the US for either of them. And we're not that far from Asia.

It's particularly apparent when you get into more expensive cars.

Let's compare some AUD-US prices (stolen from another forum)

2007 Ford Shelby GT500 Coupe -------- $40,930 --------- $200,000!
2008 Ford Shelby GT500 Coupe -------- $42,170 -------- $200,000!
2008 Audi S5 Quattro --------------------- $50,500 --------- $131,900
2007 Audi RS4 Sedan -------- ----- $66,000 --------- $164,500
2006 Maserati Coupe GT -------- --------- $79,900 --------- $248,500
2007 Porsche 911 Carrera S Coupe --------- $81,400 ---------- $224,400
2008 BMW M5 Sedan --------------- $82,900 --------- $231,500
2007 Porsche GT3 Coupe ---------- $106,000 ----- $253,200
2007 Ferrari F430 Coupe ---------- $173,079 --------- $389,000
2007 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano Coupe -------- $264,034 ---------- $574,000

And remember the $AUD is almost at parity with the $USD (0.95 to 1), then you English and Americans can all think yourselves lucky.
 
Because of RHD cars the Brits are being ripped off.
the rest of Europe is still getting ripped off, but not by so much.

Europe FTL

/thread :p
 
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