Middle East and North Africa Unrest

While i'd agree that Lewis Page (author of that Register article) is a prat. The pilot numbers, costs etc. are taken from a report by the National Audit Office. The NAO have quite a history of cutting through the conspiracy of optimism found in the MoD and getting to the hard facts.

His report has been branded as 'creative and manipulative' by a lot of the top men at Coninsgby.

Take total program cost and divide by number of aircraft delivered for the original contract and the current state of affairs. Even allowing for inflation the costs have skyrocketed.

It's a litte more complex than people seem to understand. We don't just buy X aircraft and give them Y money. There are a series of leases, part-contracts and development deals which all go on in the background. We don't want the Typhoon project to go the way of the MR2, afterall.

Yeah, and MBDA are the ones having to slow both projects down year after year because Typhoon is STILL not ready to receive them. Meteor was ready 6 years ago but isn't going to be in use for another 7.

At this time, no aircraft are ready for Meteor, which would suggest that Meteor itself isn't quite as ready as you believe it is. Indeed, despite all the hype several years ago, I've only recently started seeing Storm Shadow on Tornado during active sorties.

Incidentally on that front each Typhoon cost more than an F22 Raptor.

As it should be; Typhoon is equally (if not more so) high-tech than Raptor, and we're ordering a smaller quantity, meaning production costs are higher.

That's all very well and good, but right now operation requirements seems to be a couple of jets in the Falklands and the airshow circuit. What we really need from Typhoon is for it to be taking over from Tornado in Afghanistan

The aircraft in the Falklands form part of our QRA readiness. No matter where Typhoon is sent operationally, those aircraft will remain there and for good reason. Even with the latest budget cuts of -2 Tornado squadrons, there are still plenty enough that there is little point removing Tornado from theatre to replace it with Typhoon; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You're arguing sending Typhoon to theatre based on the fact that it's new...where's the point in that?

The development of Typhoon is very involved and very high maintenance, which in turn incurs high costs. The aircraft is at the forefront of what we as a race of people can achieve in a multi-role aircraft.

As for your Typhoon Vs F15 argument, the sorties we are involved in with RAF Lakenheath and other red flag exercises would suggest otherwise.

In other Libyan news, it's looking like a Blades squad has been detained:
Link
 
His report has been branded as 'creative and manipulative' by a lot of the top men at Coninsgby.
As I say, Lewis Page is an acquired taste.. the NAO are more polite about the situation but present the same facts.

It's a litte more complex than people seem to understand. We don't just buy X aircraft and give them Y money. There are a series of leases, part-contracts and development deals which all go on in the background. We don't want the Typhoon project to go the way of the MR2, afterall.
I assume you mean MR4a, rather than MR2, which was in service for 40 years? Obviously the contractual arrangements for such an aircraft are complicated, particularly (as the NAO highlight) because the MoD were borderline negligent when structuring the program. No doubt many promotions were had in the 80's and 90's because of it, however the actual structure is irrelevant.. all anyone cares about is capability vs. cost.

At this time, no aircraft are ready for Meteor, which would suggest that Meteor itself isn't quite as ready as you believe it is. Indeed, despite all the hype several years ago, I've only recently started seeing Storm Shadow on Tornado during active sorties.
The issue has been the RAF not supplying aircraft test time to allow the weapons to be integrated, rather than design problems. IIRC MBDA resorted to renting F18 time for development work.

As it should be; Typhoon is equally (if not more so) high-tech than Raptor, and we're ordering a smaller quantity, meaning production costs are higher.
Oh that's a classic... F22 uses an active-element, electronically scanned array for it's radar, Eurofighter does not. F22 has stealth capability, Eurofighter does not. F22 has thrust vectoring, Eurofighter does not. F22 has the ability to act as an AWACS asset, Eurofighter does not.

The total production run of F22 was 187 aircraft, Eurofighter has already delivered 260 with hundreds outstanding.

The aircraft in the Falklands form part of our QRA readiness. No matter where Typhoon is sent operationally, those aircraft will remain there and for good reason. Even with the latest budget cuts of -2 Tornado squadrons, there are still plenty enough that there is little point removing Tornado from theatre to replace it with Typhoon; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You're arguing sending Typhoon to theatre based on the fact that it's new...where's the point in that?
Fleets cost rather than numbers of aircraft. OCUs, spares holdings, engineer and pilot training all cost money. It's why Harrier was canned in it's entirely. At the moment we only really have the money to support one fast jet type, sadly Typhoon is just not capable of being that one type. Tornado ain't broke, it's just expensive.

The development of Typhoon is very involved and very high maintenance, which in turn incurs high costs. The aircraft is at the forefront of what we as a race of people can achieve in a multi-role aircraft.
The problem is that it just isn't. Grippen has been a far more effective multi-role aircraft for a number of years now (and cheaper). Typhoon is an excellent air-air fighter that can drop the odd dumb bomb.. but certainly not do both on the same flight. That's a real problem at a time when RAF fast jets are basically acting as a Paveway delivery service.

As for your Typhoon Vs F15 argument, the sorties we are involved in with RAF Lakenheath and other red flag exercises would suggest otherwise.
Typhoon: much better than an old aircraft

Time to cut back on the RAF cool-aid, it's part of the reason we're in this mess in the first place!
 
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:offtopic:

OK, Guys thanks.

Let?s have a Time Out here.

Good points well made, interesting issues and so forth, but this is not the topic of the Thread.

It is the North African & Middle East Unrest concerning matters of political and historical issue and not the RAF Typhoon development and readiness thread.

I?d be obliged to you both if you can continue your discussion in Random Thoughts.

Thanks.

:coplight:

* * *

Oooops!
Diplomatic and political faux pas.
BBC News ? SAS members 'captured near Benghazi'

BBC News said:
Details of a UK operation to rebel-held Benghazi in Libya in which eight men - six reportedly SAS - were detained, have been disclosed to the BBC.

Defence Secretary Liam Fox said a small diplomatic team was in Benghazi and "they were in touch with them".

Continues

The Gaddafi government are claiming that the Rebels are ?lackeys? of the imperialist British.


* * *

Claim and counter-claim through the fog of war.

BBC News ? Gaddafi troops' 'gains' disputed

BBC News said:
Four Libyan towns which forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi claimed to have retaken remain under rebel control, witnesses say.

Tobruk and Ras Lanuf remain in rebel hands, BBC correspondents said.

Anti-Gaddafi forces still control Misrata and Zawiya, residents and rebels said.

But both Misrata and Ras Lanuf came under renewed attack on Sunday, and clashes have been reported in the small town of Bin Jawad.

Continues
 
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Well, at least it's the Brits screwing this one up.
 
Well, at least it's the Brits screwing this one up.

Ah, released! That was quick.

BBC News ? UK diplomatic team released by rebels

BBC News said:
A British diplomatic team, including six soldiers believed to be SAS, who were detained in eastern Libya two days ago have been freed.

The men are understood to have left Benghazi bound for Malta on board the Royal Navy frigate HMS Cumberland.

It is thought the special forces soldiers were with a diplomat who was making contact with opposition leaders.
Continues

A Dutch unit got caught near Sirte the other day, I suspect that there is a lot of ?naughty? going on by various special forces of several countries.

:rolleyes:
 
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Well, of course. They're all checking out, who might be part of the next Libyan governmant and want to make contact as soon as possible.

In the end of course, it is probably just all about the oil.
 
Opposition Carries on Fight against Gadhafi

'If the Americans Come, They Would Steal our Revolution'

By Jonathan Stock in Ajdabiya, Libya

Far from raising the white flag, Gadhafi's troops are continuing to fight against the opposition in eastern Libya in order to maintain control of the country's crucial oil facilities along the Bay of Sirt. Opposition fighters claim they have driven back their attackers, but the battle is far from finished.

Yusuf helped to transport the explosives from old bombs to the front as the opposition fought to take control of Benghazi in eastern Libya. Today, the young man, with his dark curls of hair, is wearing a beret with a red star on it. The men fighting along with him call him "Chifarris," an apparent reference to Che Guevara. The 23-year-old's mother came to Libya from Germany 30 years ago, and his forefathers fought against their Italian occupiers in the North African country. "Whatever happens will happen," he says of the current battle against dictator Moammar Gadhafi.

At the green west gate to the Bedouin city of Ajdabiya, Yunus waits, indecisively, along with hundreds of other fighters, for a decision on whether or not they will continue forward with their drive. They cover their eyes to protect them from the desert sand and peer towards Brega to the west, where the pipelines from the Defa oil fields run to the Sirt Oil Company's refinery, the second largest in oil-rich Libya. That's where fighters supporting Gadhafi arrived in the morning, supported by airplanes and heavy artillary. Nobody knows exactly what is happening there now, or whether the fighting is still continuing.

Just beyond Brega begins western Libya, parts of which are still under Gadhafi's control.

The men have set up a 107-millimeter rocket launcher, a 36-year-old model manufactured in Korea. Standing behind it is Asman Bueghi, a man wearing a blue camouflage suit. He is ready to fire at anything that approaches them along the road. "If we die, then we are all going to die," he says, grabbing a rocket and posing with it for a photo. The rockets have a maximum range of 7 kilometers (4.3 miles). Bueghi says he has always been a soldier and that he will always be one. "We are a good country," he says. Set in the sand next to him are green wooden boxes labelled with explosives warnings. Further ahead, a French M8 cannon is in place, with a smiling pensioner watching over it. Beyond that, all one can see is the vast desert.

A teenager makes his way through the crowd carrying a sword. "It's the only weapon I have," he says, stretching it up high. "Me, god and my heart," he says, holding his hand to his chest. Ambulances drive by from the front, transporting the first of the injured. The hospital in Brega was apparently too small for them. "Move, move," the passenger in the front seat hollers, waving his arms out the window in order to disperse the crowd gathered along the road.

Mazdas, Nissans and Toyotas can all be seen driving in the other direction to deliver supplies to the front. Fighters with cloth covering parts of their faces, to protect against the sand, hold their Kalashnikovs high and bang them into the air. Fear? No, we're not afraid, say the fighters. But many of them call out "pray for us!"

'Anyone with a Car Should Chase the Murderers'


At the hospital in Brega, one can hear the dull thump of detonations. Yusuf says it is enemy fire. The hallways are full of people who have come to help. Even pharmacists have donned turquoise doctor's smocks. One young man lying on a bed is getting a wound on his hand bandaged and shrapnel has struck his thumb. "For Libya," he calls out, creating a victory symbol with his forefinger and middle finger on his uninjured hand.

One of the helpers plays an unsteady video on his mobile phone of a fighter who was hit in the neck. The man is no longer in the hospital. There is a trail of blood droplets on the sidewalk outside the hospital leading to a small building about 20 meters away. It is the hospital's morgue and inside lie three bodies, the feet of the man in the middle are wrapped together with white bandages. It is a tiny facility; a fourth body lies on a stretcher on the floor covered with a lab coat, its face still covered with sand, dried sweat and blood.

It was 5:00 a.m. when the Gadhafi loyalists approached in 50 vehicles from the direction of Sirt, the neighboring town to the west, say family members of the hospitalized rebels. They occupied the oil refinery, the airport and the port, they say. But the fighters from Ajdabiya were able to push them back.

"Anyone with a car should chase the murderers," the driver of an ambulance calls into his radio. Particularly those with four-wheel drive, he adds, given that the pro-Gadhafi forces fled into the desert. Two ambulances head out to collect the rest of the dead.

Shortly before they arrive at the refinery, they come across a group of rebels. They captured and killed one of the pro-Gadhafi fighters, who lies dead on the ground, his face in the dirt. The rebels claim that he is a mercenary from Mauritania. They are playing around with the corpse, waving with his shoes and dragging him on the ground. One of the fighters playfully aims his Kalashnikov at the dead man and his comrades jump out of the way. Then the body is picked up and put in the ambulance.

'Gadhafi Wants the Oil'

Yusuf Sultan, who works at the refinery, climbs into the bed of one of the pick-up trucks and points to the two pipelines that travel 200 kilometers through the desert. "It's the oil," he says. "Gadhafi wants the oil. That's a good sign; it means he is running out."

So far, there have been at least five people killed and 20 wounded in the battle, says Nasser El Suhbi, an anaesthesiologist and emergency room doctor who came from Benghazi to pick up the most seriously wounded. Suhbi says that Benghazi, the most important city in the part of Libya no longer under Gadhafi's control, can only take on the worst cases. Some 80 percent of the country's nurses, most of whom came from the Philippines, have left Libya and there is a shortage of medical supplies, particularly anaesthetics. "Maybe there is enough for another month," Suhbi says.

The doctor isn't just worried about hospital supplies. Outside, a group of people are shooting joyously into the air. "They should be saving their bullets," Suhbi says.

On the return trip, the new radio station from eastern Libya is playing. "This is the voice of free Libya," the moderator says and addresses the city of Sirt directly, the town from which the mercenaries are thought to have approached. "I call on you, the sons of Sirt, you children of Libya! Do not obey the tyrant Gadhafi! You know that he is crazy and that he kills everybody. We love you, we are all one family. You have fought many battles with us. Fight with us again! Rise up!"

Yusuf leans out of the window and yells "victory!" At the same time, two jets are attacking Brega and drop bombs near an ambulance there, as a Danish photographer reports later. But even if Gadhafi should continue his attacks on the rebels, Yusuf and his comrades say they don't want to see Western troops in Libya. A no-fly zone, he says, would be fine. "But if the Americans come," he says, "they would steal our revolution."

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,748832,00.html
 
^
The BBC, Sky News and Aljazeera have all carried quotes and summaries to the same effect, that they don?t want outside inference to ?steal their revolution?, but some say they don?t mind an air exclusion zone and see no contradiction. :think:

Aljazeera News ? Libyan forces strike back at rebels

Aljazeera News said:
Opposition fighters in Libya have been fending off fierce attacks by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, amid reports of rising death toll.

Gaddafi supporters are moving eastward in an effort to push the rebels back and recapture fallen towns, with reports emerging that they have taken the central Libyan town of Bin Jawad.

"We don't want a foreign military intervention, but we do want a no-fly zone," rebel fighter Ali Suleiman told AP.

* * *

This is a good report from Alex Crawford inside the hospital in the western city of Zawiyah, but is a bit shocking to watch.

Sky News ? Libya, Zawiyah: Rebels Defiant Despite The Odds
VIDEO WARNING - Contains scenes of emergency surgery and pictures of severely wounded adults and children.

Sky News said:
The town of Zawiyah, just 30 miles from Libyan capital Tripoli, has witnessed some of the heaviest fighting in the escalating crisis.

The debris of war is evident everywhere in the streets.

They fought tooth and nail here. They had few weapons against the military firepower of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Khamis Brigade but somehow, against overwhelming odds, they fought them off over and over again.

Continues

* * *

The UK opposition is having some fun at the Government?s expense, over the captured SAS & MI6 team.

BBC News ? Libya unrest: Ministers accused of 'serial bungling'

BBC News said:
Labour has accused the government of "serial bungling" over Libya, following a botched SAS mission to make contact with opponents of the country's leader.

Six soldiers and two Foreign Office officials were detained for two days by rebels in eastern Libya but were freed on Sunday and left the country.

Continues

?Serial Bungling? :lol:
 
I personally hope that the US/NATO does not get themselves into this conflict.
 
Reuters - Libyan rebel gives Gaddafi 72 hours to quit
Reuters said:
Rebels will not pursue Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi over crimes they say he has committed if he steps down from his post in the next 72 hours, the head of the rebel National Libyan Council said on Tuesday.

"If he leaves Libya immediately, during 72 hours, and stops the bombardment, we as Libyans will step back from pursuing him for crimes," Mustafa Abdel Jalil, an ex-justice minister, told Al Jazeera television by telephone, speaking at about 8:30 a.m. EST (1330 GMT).

He said the deadline would not be extended beyond 72 hours. The council is based in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

(Writing by Edmund Blair)

One of the strange stories emerging today, I can?t see this happening.

* * *

I personally hope that the US/NATO does not get themselves into this conflict.

Agreed, maybe the Arab League would sanction an all Arab countries NFZ, mounted in Tunisia and Egypt, then operated by the Saudis or someone with the capability. They discussed this earlier in the week, but there wasn?t any concrete proposal.
 
The Saudis are the obvious choice, they have a fleet of F-15s.
 
The Saudis are the obvious choice, they have a fleet of F-15s.

Perhaps it is time for the Arab League and states to do something like this.

* * *

And Zawiyah took another pasting today, gutsy defending against the odds, gotta respect them for that. Supposed to be a column of "50 tanks" attacked the city.

Sky News ? Rebel-Held Town of Zawiyah Under Siege
Be warned the above video contains graphic images of those injured in the fighting.

Sky News said:
Alex Crawford, special correspondent, in Zawiyah
The people of Zawiyah are fighting for their lives. We have seen with our own eyes Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's forces firing on peaceful protesters.

We have witnessed the regime's tanks shelling residential buildings. We have sheltered in a mosque as the colonel's soldiers fired on the minarets.

Later, we were in the town's Martyrs' Square watching the rebels' celebrations as the authorities in Tripoli told the foreign media they had "liberated" the place.

The Sky News crew of cameraman Martin Smith, foreign editor Tim Miller and I found ourselves trapped in Zawiyah as the Libyan army still loyal to Col Gaddafi moved in to crush them.
Continues

The BBC and Aljazeera do not have this, she is possibly the only TV journo in the city, ?Scoop Crawford?.
 
The BBC, Sky News and Aljazeera have all carried quotes and summaries to the same effect, that they don?t want outside inference to ?steal their revolution?, but some say they don?t mind an air exclusion zone and see no contradiction. :think:
There is certainly a contradiction. Whoever might impose a no-fly zone would have to deal with much more than just aircraft. It would require serious air interdiction just to make sure their aircraft were safe. It could open the door to utilizing air strips in the eastern part of the country, which would mean a base, which would mean troops, etc etc etc.

?Serial Bungling? :lol:
I was wondering if that was intentionally funny or just typical Ukania political speak that I, as a yank, found entertaining. :lol:

I personally hope that the US/NATO does not get themselves into this conflict.
It's difficult to watch this unfold as it has; a tyrant turning his military against his own people, but I've been impressed with the response from western governments. Broad sanctions rapidly put in place but a general consensus that foreign military action should be avoided if possible. I think NATO is further discussing a potential no-fly zone today or tomorrow.

I'd rather see the Arab League and African Union deal with it, but I have little hope of that happening. A good deal of states in both those organizations have governments that are as (or nearly as) authoritarian as Gaddafi's. They wouldn't directly support a rebellion that echoes criticisms of their own government. It would be hypocritical and dangerous for them to do so. The Arab League said they were "considering" such an action and the Organization of the Islamic Conference said they'd support a no-fly zone ... if the West was carrying it out.
 
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^
Yes,"serial bungling" was supposed to be funny and critical of a series of mistakes the UK government made.

I think the politicians & diplomats will talk themselves in circles on the NFZ and nothing will get done before events overtake its necessity.

There has no new report from Alex Crawford (Sky News) in Zawiyah today. This report filed six hours ago is a re-edit of video from last weekend up until about 24 hours ago. Click here.

Maybe it has fallen, as claimed by the Gaddafi government.
 
A good deal of states in both those organizations have governments that are as (or nearly as) authoritarian as Gaddafi's. They wouldn't directly support a rebellion that echoes criticisms of their own government. It would be hypocritical and dangerous for them to do so.

Not to mention the general ineptitude of both the Arab League and the African Union when it comes to military matters. That fact is one of the reasons why I support Western involvement.

Broad sanctions rapidly put in place but a general consensus that foreign military action should be avoided if possible.

Sanctions that in the short run will ultimately do little to stop the slaughter.
 
BBC News - Gaddafi forces beat up BBC team

BBC News said:
Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's security forces detained and beat up a BBC news team who were trying to reach the strife-torn western city of Zawiya.

The three were beaten with fists, knees and rifles, hooded and subjected to mock executions by members of Libya's army and secret police.

The men were detained on Monday and held for 21 hours, but have now flown out of Libya.

Continues

What the Fuck! :mad:

Hey Gaddafi, big mistake, BIG mistake!
Don't mess with the international press corps, because the rest of them will come down on you.

Also, I am not a huge fan of Sky News, but Alex Crawford was the only TV reporter in Zawiyah during the last week giving exculsive reports, much to the probable annoyance of Gaddafi regime and contradicting the official line.

I fear for her safety now, as it seems likely that the city will fall into Gaddafi's hands quite soon. She and the team may "disappear".
 
You never touch the press. It's not about freedom of the press. It's about pragmatism in the face of world opinion. I'm not comparing now, but just to explain my point, while Israel were assured bad press during the Gaza war, they made it a lot worse by denying the international press entrance.

That was then and this is now. It's not the same, but just imagine, if just being held out made the world press pissed off during Gaza, how they'll react to a regime actually beating journalists.

Bad fucking move.
 
Not to mention the general ineptitude of both the Arab League and the African Union when it comes to military matters. That fact is one of the reasons why I support Western involvement.
With their combined military strength I'm sure they could handle Libya.

Sanctions that in the short run will ultimately do little to stop the slaughter.
The violence wouldn't stop with the implementation of a no-fly zone either.
 
With their combined military strength I'm sure they could handle Libya.

That is not the point. Logistics, coordination, strategy, training, etc are all factors and are all lacking in the two organizations. Sure they may be victorious by throwing men and material at the problem but expect significantly higher causalities and a significantly extended time line.

Your comments do highlight something that has been going on lately, people advocating military action without knowing much about military matters.
 
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BBC News ? Guardian (UK) and Brazilian Newspaper Estado Journalists missing in Libya

BBC News said:
One of the Guardian's most experienced correspondents is missing in Libya, the UK newspaper has said.

Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, an Iraqi, last made contact with the paper on Sunday from near Zawiya, west of Tripoli.

The Guardian has been in contact with Libyan government officials in Tripoli and London to ask for help in the search for him.

The correspondent was travelling with Andrei Netto of the Brazilian newspaper Estado, who is also missing.

Continues

The latest report from the Libyan authorities is that they are being held in an unspecified detention camp.

Well, how about you let them go immediately, you corrupt fucks!

* * *

BBC News ? France recognises rebels as government

BBC News said:
France has become the first country to recognise the Libyan rebel leadership, the National Libyan Council (NLC), as the country's legitimate government.

But other members of the European Union held back, with a spokesman for the EU's foreign affairs chief warning against "rushing" into decisions.

In another development, the Gaddafi government said a captured Dutch helicopter crew was being handed over.

Continues

Secretary of State Clinton hinted today that the US may follow suit and seemed lukewarm on the question of the NFZ, pointing out that it did not stop Saddam killing his people.

Good that they let the Dutchies go, but are stealing impounding their helicopter.

* * *

BBC News ? Rebels forced from Libyan oil port of Ras Lanuf

BBC News said:
Libyan rebels are fleeing the oil port of Ras Lanuf after sustained attacks by forces loyal to Col Muammar Gaddafi.

There were reports of severe civilian casualties after rebel positions and residential areas came under fire from rockets and shells.

Libyan state TV said pro-Gaddafi troops had also cleared rebels from the oil port of Sidra, west of Ras Lanuf.

One of Col Gaddafi's sons, Saif al-Islam, said it was time for "liberation" and "action".

Continues

I hope this is only a temporary withdrawl, but I fear it is not the case.

:(
 
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