Welcome to America. Now go away.

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Firecat said:
Racism really isn't much of an issue in the United States, which is why organized sport here doesn't need anti-racism campaigns.
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You really believe that, don't you?

We do not pretend that racism doesn't exist, we speak about it and try to sharpen the public's mind. Racism can only be fought when everyone is aware of the fact that it exists. It begins in the homes of people and has to be fought there.

It exists everywhere. The only difference is how it is handled.
 
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That racism is ripe in Europe? Yes, I do. If you wish to prove otherwise, I'm waiting.
 
Firecat said:
That racism is ripe in Europe? Yes, I do. If you wish to prove otherwise, I'm waiting.
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I believe MacGuffin's argument isn't that racism is non-existent in Europe, but that it is more widespread in the US.

Either way, stats or links would be nice.
 
I wouldn't even know where to look for that kind of information. But given the different cultures, immigration, and history, it shouldn't be that surprising.
 
Well, if you hear someone saying "We don't have racism here", expect it to be huge then. It grows best when you don't mention or when you neglect it.
 
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Firecat said:
Racism really isn't much of an issue in the United States, which is why organized sport here doesn't need anti-racism campaigns.
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You're only 40 years out of segregation. I find it hard to believe that there still isn't a lot of racism prevalent in the older generations.
 
It doesn't need to be a riot of skinheads in army boots who run after a black man, swinging baseball clubs. It doesn't need to be the Ku-Klux-Klan. Racism is almost never that obvious.

Racism is hidden behind the everyday face of middle class society.

Recently I watched the movie "Borat" - in wide parts an overhyped flick, if you ask me - but I was really appalled by how easy it was to fool members of the U.S. middle class into believing a bloke from Kasachstan would really talk and act that way. I could not laugh about that at all. He was treated like one of the "savages" that were passed around not too long ago at the royal courts in European countries for the amusement of "civilized" people.

I don't say it's different anywhere else in the Western world, I do not say that we are better than that. All I say is that hidden racism is a part of all societies and denying that is actually the first step of making it worse.

Racism arises from a lack of knowledge and the avoidance of other ethnic groups. Everytime certain parts of society tend to keep among themselves without letting any "outsiders" in, racism is already rooted in the minds.

Whenever the tone of your skin, the colour of your hair or just the sound of your name has an influence on how you are treated, racism is part of the game. So when members of a certain ethnic group are checked out more than others on airports, then that is 100 % pure racism.
 
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Firecat said:
Racism really isn't much of an issue in the United States, which is why organized sport here doesn't need anti-racism campaigns.
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:lol: Please tell me you weren't serious? As MacGuffin said - the racism is hidden but it's everywhere.
In everyday life everyone seems to be ok with people from other races, but as soon as a serious argument comes up most american leap on the opportunity to use the race card.
In addition to the racism is a dose of nationalism. On several occasions I've been looked upon badly, just because I'm a foreigner - without breaking any rules, or offending someone.
 
I'm surprised that so many people buy into "the race card" so easily.

Racism is hate. Hate. Just because someone is uneasy around certain people of certain nationalities, it doesn't make them racists. Racists HATE people of different nationalities and/or ethnicities. Calling everyone racists because you think they look down on you is bullshit. Saying racism is everywhere is bullshit.

Everyone judges people. You may not think you do, but you do. You look at how people dress, how they talk, how they present themselves, and you judge them. Thats what people do. If you ballooned up to 500 pounds, you'll be looked down on by some people as well. You can't avoid it. But that doesn't make people hateful racists/sexists/blahblahblah.

Of course, I'm a Caucasian American Christian Male, so I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the subject.
 
I disagree.

Racism has more to do with a lack of knowledge and understanding, than with hate. Hate usually has some source or reason - be it personal experience or that you were infected with it by the cirumstances of your life.

It often happens that frustration about one's owns life situation can turn into hate, which is then directed towards those, who supposedly made your life a misery (e.g. being anti-Japanese because you are a worker for GM in Detroit) but that is not really racism. That is simply desparation looking for a way to express itself.

Racism, however, comes from prejudices, the belief in stereotypes, a lack of knowledge and the resulting fear of the unknown. The true racism of the really dangerous kind (which I mean), is a sneaky fellow and lives in the minds of people where you wouldn't expect it to be. It comes out when you talk to people in private who had a drink too much or flashes up in certain jokes that are being made among colleagues.

It is my belief that only an intermix of cultures with learning from each other and understanding each other's ways is a valid method to counteract it. Every other attempt must fail.

So the main obstacle is a lack of openness - from both sides of course, because racism is not a one-way phenomenon. Not only white people are racists, it effects all of humanity.

If people would really intermix and stop isolating themselves in ghettos and secluded areas, we would have a better world. That is why I am so much a fan of an integrated Europe.

Sorry if that sounded like a sermon but I can't express it better than that.
 
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Peter3hg said:
You're only 40 years out of segregation. I find it hard to believe that there still isn't a lot of racism prevalent in the older generations.
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Perhaps, I don't know. In the mid-80s, was anti-semitism prevalent among older Germans?

Regardless, none of us have any hard facts. So I think the discussion has just become a guessing game, which is why I'm glad that it has moved on from this.

MacGuffin said:
Racism arises from a lack of knowledge and the avoidance of other ethnic groups. Everytime certain parts of society tend to keep among themselves without letting any "outsiders" in, racism is already rooted in the minds.
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Your argument seems to be that living in an area which is not ethnically or racially diverse inherently makes you racist. That's just ridiculous. It's like saying that since i've never met an Armenian, I'm a racist. So, unlesss you have met a person from every and any type of race in existence today, you are racist as well.


MacGuffin said:
I disagree.

Racism has more to do with a lack of knowledge and understanding, than with hate. Hate usually has some source or reason - be it personal experience or that you were infected with it by the cirumstances of your life.

It often happens that frustration about one's owns life situation can turn into hate, which is then directed towards those, who supposedly made your life a misery (e.g. being anti-Japanese because you are a worker for GM in Detroit) but that is not really racism. That is simply desparation looking for a way to express itself.

Racism, however, comes from prejudices, the belief in stereotypes, a lack of knowledge and the resulting fear of the unknown. The true racism of the really dangerous kind (which I mean), is a sneaky fellow and lives in the minds of people where you wouldn't expect it to be. It comes out when you talk to people in private who had a drink too much or flashes up in certain jokes that are being made among colleagues.

It is my belief that only an intermix of cultures with learning from each other and understanding each other's ways is a valid method to counteract it. Every other attempt must fail.

So the main obstacle is a lack of openness - from both sides of course, because racism is not a one-way phenomenon. Not only white people are racists, it effects all of humanity.

If people would really intermix and stop isolating themselves in ghettos and secluded areas, we would have a better world. That is why I am so much a fan of an integrated Europe.

Sorry if that sounded like a sermon but I can't express it better than that.
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I don't particularly disagree with what you have said. I think if communities were more diverse, it would be beneficial.

Of course a racist lacks knowledge, understanding, and is ignorant. Because such a person has formed an opinion that just isn't rational. But that still does not mean that a person who has been isolated from other cultures is racist, so your definition is still not accurate.

It's the idea of thinking that you are superior to other races/ethnicities, which makes you a racist. And that could be shown explicitly (violence), or implicitly (as you mentioned by certain jokes or attitudes).
 
MacGuffin said:
I disagree.

Racism has more to do with a lack of knowledge and understanding, than with hate. ...
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But can one ever truly understand what it means to be someone of a different culture? I have quite a few friends of different ethnicities, but I would never, ever, claim to know what it's like to be them. Does that make me racist? Your definition leads me to believe that everyone is racist, since absolute knowledge and understanding is impossible. But there are other things that you mention, like isolation. I don't know what it's like to be black or Hispanic, but I do know what it's like to be white. The fact that people with commonalities tend to group together shouldn't be surprising. Calling those people racists doesn't seem fair.

In short, by your logic, everyone is a racist. I disagree. Like Firecat said "It's the idea of thinking that you are superior to other races/ethnicities, which makes you a racist." And I personally believe there is a great deal of hate involved in that mindset.
 
TomCat said:
In short, by your logic, everyone is a racist. I disagree. Like Firecat said "It's the idea of thinking that you are superior to other races/ethnicities, which makes you a racist." And I personally believe there is a great deal of hate involved in that mindset.
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I wouldn't go that far. But I would say that everyone carries the seed inside and is responsible for whether it comes into blooom or not. I happen to live in a country with a particular bad record in this matter. Studying the mechanisms of what makes racism grow, is never wrong.
 
That could have been self defense, though :D
 
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