Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

Well damn, Modern Warfare 2 lied to me!

In other news, probably because I can't embed this, this is hysterical: The Sarah Palin Network from SNL with Tina Fey.

The Tonight Show with Jay Leno :lmao:
 
Keyword there is "think" versus "know". They have no idea, and instead of holding back until they have established an understanding of the situation, they shoot as soon as they are able because they think it's fun.
 
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Keyword there is "think" versus "know". They have no idea, and instead of holding back until they have established an understanding of the situation, they shoot as soon as they are able because they think it's fun.
How would you suggest that they "establish an understanding of the situation"? Seriously? What they knew is that they were looking at a group of men, some of them armed. These men were in an area that a US convoy was going to move through; an area where there had recently been fights with insurgents. They shot up the van because it was coming to aid the men they thought were insurgents and it wasn't marked as an ambulance.

Yes, it's awful that they killed civilians. Yes they were extremely cold about it; that's their job. But they didn't willfully break our rules of engagement or any international agreement.

I still think that it's funny/sad that this single attack is getting so much attention. The only reason anyone even knows about this is because a couple Reuters reporters were killed. There have been much, much worse unintentional killings of civilians.
 
Keyword there is "think" versus "know". They have no idea, and instead of holding back until they have established an understanding of the situation, they shoot as soon as they are able because they think it's fun.

As opposed to...random people on the internet three years later.
 
Keyword there is "think" versus "know". They have no idea, and instead of holding back until they have established an understanding of the situation, they shoot as soon as they are able because they think it's fun.
No, they shoot as soon as they are able because that's their job. The situation was pretty clear; armed insurgents were in the direct path of a US convoy. The helicopter was there specifically to ensure the safety of the convoy. If it still isn't clear to you what the situation was, I suggest you never take on a job with your country's military.

The chance of successfully hitting an circling helicopter with an RPG-7 from 500 meters away is so small it does not exist, as you would know if you read the linked documents, where the chance of a hit with this weapon is illustrated in a nice graph. The chance of hitting even a stationary target at such range is minute.
I did read the document. And again, I say lets put you in a helicopter, and I'll fire an RPG at it. It's easy for you to be judgmental now, but once I fire rockets at your airborne high horse, we'll see how much faith you put in your "chance so small it doesn't exist" claim.

People win the lottery every day, despite million-to-one odds; explaining to your commanding officer, should you survive a rocket actually hitting your helicopter, that you didn't fire on someone with an RPG because "the chances of the rocket hitting us were so small they didn't exist" probably wouldn't go over so well.

And I've even been ignoring the point, for sake of discussion, that tigger and Hidden_Hunter have made; that the RPG could have also easily been used against the approaching convoy, which the helicopter was there to protect.

While you are careful not to write it out in clear language, what you are arguing via your train of thought is that the lives of fifteen arabs are worth less than the lives of two americans, and that's why it's okay to open fire on a group of people without knowing who they are or what their intentions are. Because they're arabs, and probably dangerous. It's easy to draw paralells to Vietnam and "the gooks".
No, I haven't written it out in clear language because I don't care what color anyone is. Those could have been whitest-of-white-bread Americans, and it still wouldn't change the facts of the matter. It's absolutely laughable that you and chaos386 are trying to brand me as a racist, when it's you guys that are the ones playing the race card. You are the ones making a big deal about how it's Americans killing Arabs, not me. You are the ones saying that I think Arabs are dangerous, not me; I think people with RPG's and guns are dangerous, regardless of race. It's easy to draw parallels between you and "someone who can't debate effectively".

It's also you who is missing the entire point that the helicopter was there to protect a US military caravan. It's not just "two Americans"; it's an entire platoon whose lives were put into jeopardy by these insurgents. The fact that you continuously and unabashedly ignore this important detail suggests to me that you should again, never consider a job within the military, and should stay away from positions that require attention to detail.


It's also worth talking about how "callous" everyone appeared to be during the video. I used to work at an animal shelter, and routinely had to deal with deadly, gruesome, or otherwise uncomfortable situations. I eventually had to become a certified Euthanasia Technician, and attend a class on what's called "Compassion Fatigue". We were essentially taught, as everyone who works with mortality and trauma, to "disconnect" from our jobs. Not to not care (because what's the point if we don't care), but to not take personal care... and one of the ways to "disconnect" is to make jokes or improve efficiency. There's actually a couple Scrubs episode which deals with this; how you can appear heartless and callous to an outsider, but how you're actually keeping your sanity and improving your bottom-line job performance.

As a result, we at the shelter routinely made comments or performed actions that would appear callous to the general public, many along the same lines as the Scrubs episodes discussed. It wasn't because we didn't care about animals, because we did, but if we took personal interest in every animal in the course of our jobs, it would be absolutely crushing to morale and eventually drive everyone insane.

We saw animals in our care as names, numbers, and personality blurbs (I also worked in adoption; animals were leaving that building through me one way or another). We could not get personally attached to animals, because if that animal had to "go to god" for whatever reason, or just didn't get adopted for months on end, that animal would simply devour you. Same with doctors. Same with nurses. Same with law enforcement.

And same with the military. And because it's human mortality being inflicted, rather than prevented, the compassion fatigue becomes dangerous and especially toxic. Why do you think there are so many PTSD cases with the military? Because compassion fatigue will ultimately catch up to every person in the military who has to deal with mortality.

It isn't pretty, but that's what they're there to do. They're there to do a job. And it might not be a funny job to those of you saying "well they should have done..." or "well listen to them say...", but if you don't make it a funny job, it will eat you alive.
 
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Alright, you get up into a helicopter, and I'll shoot an RPG at you from 500m away, and then you can tell me how invalid my assumption is that they should be worried.

It's easy to say <JC adenoid voice>"ohhhh well the probability of an RPG hitting a helicopter from 500 meters is roughly 5%"</JC> from your nice, big chair in the comfort of your own home and denounce anyone neglecting such a fact. You would do well to remember it's a bit different to gamble on that 5% with your own life and the lives of everyone else in your helicopter.

Now you are just ignoring the facts. The Apache was outside of the maximum range of the projectile at the time the van showed up. No amount of willpower is going to send the rocket further then it can possibly go.

Whether or not the men on the ground were a threat to the helicopter is irrelevant. The helicopter doesn't have to wait for someone to fire at it before it can engage them; it is there to support ground forces. If they think someone is a threat to ground forces then they can engage them.

Its relevant to Dogbert's point. He is saying they could have been a threat to the apache when in fact they were no threat at all.
 
You have no idea if they are "insurgents". Likewise the helicopter crew have no idea of the intentions of the group, permission to fire is given before anyone spots an RPG, the group does not pose a threat to neither the helicopters nor any ground troops at the time. Ground forces do not arrive on scene until after more than fifteen minutes, indicating they were not in the immediate proximity to the group either for that matter.

00:03 Okay I got it.
00:05 Last conversation Hotel Two-Six.
00:09 Roger Hotel Two-Six [Apache helicopter 1], uh, [this is] Victor Charlie Alpha. Look, do you want your Hotel Two-Two two el-
00:14 I got a black vehicle under target. It's arriving right to the north of the mosque.
00:17 Yeah, I would like that. Over.
00:21 Moving south by the mosque dome. Down that road.
00:27 Okay we got a target fifteen coming at you. It's a guy with a weapon.
00:32 Roger [acknowledged].
00:39 There's a...
00:42 There's about, ah, four or five...
00:44 Bushmaster Six [ground control] copy [i hear you] One-Six.
00:48 ...this location and there's more that keep walking by and one of them has a weapon.
00:52 Roger received target fifteen.
00:55 K.
00:57 See all those people standing down there.
01:06 Stay firm. And open the courtyard.
01:09 Yeah roger. I just estimate there's probably about twenty of them.
01:13 There's one, yeah.
01:15 Oh yeah.
01:18 I don't know if that's a...
01:19 Hey Bushmaster element [ground forces control], copy on the one-six.
01:21 Thats a weapon.
01:22 Yeah.
01:23 Hotel Two-Six; Crazy Horse One-Eight [second Apache helicopter].
01:29 Copy on the one-six, Bushmaster Six-Romeo. Roger.
01:32 Fucking prick.
01:33 Hotel Two-Six this is Crazy Horse One-Eight [communication between chopper 1 and chopper 2]. Have individuals with weapons.
01:41 Yup. He's got a weapon too.
01:43 Hotel Two-Six; Crazy Horse One-Eight. Have five to six individuals with AK47s [automatic rifles]. Request permission to engage [shoot].
01:51 Roger that. Uh, we have no personnel east of our position. So, uh, you are free to engage. Over.
02:00 All right, we'll be engaging.
02:02 Roger, go ahead.
02:03 I'm gonna... I cant get 'em now because they're behind that building.
02:09 Um, hey Bushmaster element...
02:10 He's got an RPG [Rocket Propelled Grenade]?
02:11 All right, we got a guy with an RPG.
02:13 I'm gonna fire.

They messed up, and that is the end of it. Sweeping it underneath the carpet will only further tarnish the image of your countrys forces. Conducting a new investigation could instead improve that image, but your goverment chooses option #1.

No, they shoot as soon as they are able because that's their job. The situation was pretty clear; armed insurgents were in the direct path of a US convoy. The helicopter was there specifically to ensure the safety of the convoy. If it still isn't clear to you what the situation was, I suggest you never take on a job with your country's military.
My countrys military in Afghanistan do not have permission to fire before being fired upon. Their job is to support the afghan people, not using people for target practice.

I can argue about this until the sun implodes if you wish :p

Assange was on Colbert and talked a bit about what he and his organization does
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-co...xclusives---julian-assange-unedited-interview
 
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Moving on to more joyous matters, the price tag for the eternal project that is the JSF has now gone up.

Reuters said:
The Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35, or Joint Strike Fighter, saw its unit costs jump sharply due to a major restructuring. Each airplane was now expected to cost $93 million to $112 million in fiscal year 2010 dollars, up from the $59 million per plane that was initially expected. The overall cost of the program increased by $29 billion to $328 billion in then year dollars, the Pentagon said. It said the cost growth stemmed from higher-than-expected development costs; higher labor and overhead rates; lower production quantities; increases in commodity prices, particularly titanium; major subcontractor cost growth; and the impact of revised inflation indices.
Yes, one hundred and twelve million dollars per plane.
Source

But it can get worse still
Star said:
Defense Department officials have told Congress that the already ballooning costs of the F-35 joint strike fighter are likely to soar much higher when new estimates are completed in the summer.

In the Selected Acquisition Report for the F-35, a detailed document sent to Congress on Thursday, the Pentagon said it expects that cost studies now under way will produce estimates dramatically higher than those used in recent months to prepare the 2011 defense budget request.

Based on figures in the document, the average cost of one F-35 -- $62 million when the program was launched in 2002 -- could rise to $115.5 million, not counting inflation, by the time all 2,457 planes that the U.S. plans to buy are built.

Including inflation, the government now expects each F-35 to cost an average of $133.6 million. But even that figure could swell to more than $150 million when revised estimates are completed in June.
Source

Crikey, that's expensive. I wonder how that will affect those nations who have agreed to purchase the JSF (hello there Norway :D)
 
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You have no idea if they are "insurgents".
So he changed his plans for the day to go try to find fighting. He was last seen with a group of armed insurgents. Given the context of his previous photos (especially #1), it seems clear to me he was hanging out with a group of insurgents planning on ambushing that US convoy the AH-64 was protecting, with the intent of taking pictures or filming the ambush. From his photos showing the awful consequences of the insurgency, it's clear he wasn't a sympathizer. But hanging out with insurgents planning an ambush is a dangerous job regardless of your personal feelings. He assumed a risk and, unfortunately, paid the ultimate price.
And even then, you have just as much of an idea as I do, so I don't know why you're on this moral high horse about it all.

Likewise the helicopter crew have no idea of the intentions of the group, permission to fire is given before anyone spots an RPG, the group does not pose a threat to neither the helicopters nor any ground troops at the time.
You keep slamming me whenever I bring up the Apache's decision to fire because of an RPG, claiming it isn't relevant because it's too far away and they had permission before seeing the RPG, but then bring it up whenever you feel it's relevant to your argument. How exactly is that supposed to work? It's either totally irrelevant to both of our arguments, or totally relevant to both of them. Pick one.

And "five to six individuals with AK-47's" do pose a threat to a convoy fifteen minutes away. It boggles the mind how you don't seem to see that there's any threat there. Would you rather wait until the convoy was five minutes away? What's an acceptable amount of time to watch insurgents gather? What's an acceptable distance to where armed insurgents become threats?
 
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Its relevant to Dogbert's point. He is saying they could have been a threat to the apache when in fact they were no threat at all.
With what's been said about the altitude of the Apache and the accuracy/limits of the RPG7; no I don't think there was a threat to the Apache (be that as it may, if I was in an Apache I probably wouldn't take the chance).

Anyway, an RPG poses a very real threat to a bunch of ground vehicles in a convoy. And the Apache was there to protect to the convoy.

I'm so glad we have military experts here.
Armchair Generals, the lot us. :lol:

What's an acceptable distance to where armed insurgents become threats?
We've been over that. We have to wait until someone is shooting at us, remember? :rolleyes:
 
What's an acceptable amount of time to watch insurgents gather? What's an acceptable distance to where armed insurgents become threats?

[adenoid]

Well now you see here - if you divide the hypoteneuse by the square root of the difference in elevation between the insurgents and the helicopter, multiplied by the differential equation of distance over time plus sausage, you can estimate the distance needed to hit a helicopter with a kiwi

[/adenoid]
 
With what's been said about the altitude of the Apache and the accuracy/limits of the RPG7; no I don't think there was a threat to the Apache (be that as it may, if I was in an Apache I probably wouldn't take the chance).
Right, and that's the point I'm apparently not making very well; rockets flying at you are a bad thing. It doesn't matter what probability they have of hitting you, just that they are firing (or want to fire) rockets at you. If you, in the gunner position of a helicopter, had someone fruitlessly firing RPG's at you... you would be a liar if you said that you wouldn't fire back at him, and would just say "oh well he isn't doing any harm, let him keep firing his rockets".

We've been over that. We have to wait until someone is shooting at us, remember? :rolleyes:
Oh right, apparently Swedish Rule of Engagement #1 is "hope they miss". Works real well, I hear.

And upon doing some reading, Sweden is part of the ISAF, and leads the PRT in Mazar-i-Sharif. Per Wikipedia,
Following 9/11, Mazar was the first Afghan city to fall to the Northern Alliance (former militias). The Taliban's defeat in Mazar quickly turned into a rout from the rest of the north and west of Afghanistan. On November 9, 2001 the city was recaptured by the Afghan Northern Alliance after the Battle of Mazar e Sharif with help from the United States Special Operations Forces.
So basically, the city (the fourth largest in Afghanistan, it should be said) is and has been under US, NATO, or Karzai control since 2001, and is considered one of the safest cities in Afghanistan, having only minor clashes from 2001 to 2003. No wonder Sweden can take the "ask questions, shoot later" policy that AiR has been espousing while denouncing the US for not doing the same; they're essentially a police force in Afghanistan, not a military force.
 
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You have no idea if they are "insurgents". Likewise the helicopter crew have no idea of the intentions of the group, permission to fire is given before anyone spots an RPG,

RPGs aren't it's explicitly mentioned by name in the radio chatter until after clearance to fire is given, BUT--and this is a big "but"--"weapons" are mentioned repeatedly in the radio chatter beforehand. And when you watch the video of what they were looking at when they were talking about "weapons," as I and other members have noted, you can see weapons in the group from the very beginning, including what appear to be RPGs (and I'm not talking just about the camera).

the group does not pose a threat to neither the helicopters nor any ground troops at the time. Ground forces do not arrive on scene until after more than fifteen minutes, indicating they were not in the immediate proximity to the group either for that matter.

...or it means that they were in the vicinity but otherwise preoccupied for 15 minutes. It could mean any number of things. You can't assume that just because ground forces didn't end up arriving on scene for 15 minutes, that the planned ambush was no danger to ground forces.

01:51 Roger that. Uh, we have no personnel east of our position. So, uh, you are free to engage. Over.

All that means was that the helicopter was west of the group of insurgents, and was confirming that there were no US troops who would be hit if the gunfire overshot the target by a hundred yards or so. It doesn't mean that no US forces were in the vicinity or would be passing through the vicinity shortly.

My countrys military in Afghanistan do not have permission to fire before being fired upon. Their job is to support the afghan people, not using people for target practice.

In Somalia, that led to US forces being witnesses to massacres because they personally were not taking fire. Whether you think those should have been the rules of engagement for the Apache, the fact was, those WEREN'T the rules of engagement. And the pilot is bound by the actual RoEs, not what you think they should be.
 
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Wouldn't a RPG be important enough to spot out specifically?
I'm willing to bet they didn't see it before asking permission to engage.
 
Lets face it, we all know every American in the military is there because they want to kill people. They all praise George Herbert Walker Bush like a God and all the cases of PTSD are just faking it. They have nothing in common with European forces and no morals or ethics.

And it's all proven by a shitty video. Who knows better than the internet and mass media?
 
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Works real well, I hear.
It does work very well indeed. Something like four dead. Four too many considering they have no business being there in the first place, but still four is no biggie.
Rule #2 is whine about it on the Internet when somebody actually does something in a war zone. Golly!
If bringing the matter to public attention so that the wrongs can be rectified is whining, then yes.

Lets face it, we all know every American in the military is there because they want to kill people. They all praise George Herbert Walker Bush like a God and all the cases of PTSD are just faking it. They have nothing in common with European forces and no morals or ethics.
The US military is infallible and never does anything wrong. See, I can too.


And now for something interesting, a soldier in the infamous clip spoke on the radio!
http://www.civsol.org/content/second-member-of-company-involved-in-wikileaks-inc

Also interesting and applaudable is the political moves on Iceland to strengthen freedom.

Guardian said:
Iceland intends to become a bastion for global press freedom under a package of laws proposed by opposition MPs to defend freedom of speech, and protect sources and fight libel tourism.

With the help of Wikileaks, the online whistleblowing site, the MPs have launched the Icelandic Modern Media Intiative, with the goal of turning the country into a global haven for investigative journalism.

The proposal, which has widespread backing among Iceland's 51 MPs, is scheduled to come before the Althingi, Iceland's parliament, next Tuesday, in the first step towards turning the idea into law.

"It is a good project for political change," said R?bert Marshall, a member of the ruling Social Democratic Alliance party. "We have been through a difficult period and this is an initiative that can unite the whole political scene."

As a former journalist Marshall is keen on the creation of the Icelandic Prize for Freedom of Expression. A haven for free expression would, he said, help counter the growing practice of libel tourism. British courts in particular, have become a favoured destination for complainants seeking to take advantage of the UK's plaintiff-friendly libel laws. The House of Lords recently established a government panel to look into the possibility of amending its laws to make it tougher for foreigners to bring defamation suits in Britain, amid fears that current British law was having a "chilling effect" on freedom of expression.

When the Guardian was prevented from publishing documents on the alleged dumping of 400 tonnes of toxic waste on behalf of the global commodities trader Trafigura because of a super-injunction, the material ended up on Wikileaks days later.

The site played a role in Iceland's financial crisis last summer when a national TV broadcaster was blocked from revealing a list of creditors in the country's banking debacle. The broadcaster ran the url for the Wikileaks disclosure instead.

Birgitta J?nsd?ttir, of The Movement, a political party with three MPs, is confident the measure will become law. "From what I have experienced from discussions with MPs from all the different parties, there is incredible goodwill," she told the BBC.
 
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It does work very well indeed. Something like four dead. Four too many considering they have no business being there in the first place, but still four is no biggie.
You missed my entire point; it works very well when you're largely a police force in one of the safest cities, as the Swedish forces are. It's easy to take a "hope they miss" RoE when they aren't being fired at in the first place... unless, you know, when they actually are.

And what exactly does "four is no biggie" mean?

The US military is infallible and never does anything wrong. See, I can too.
Except nobody is saying the US military is infallible and never does anything wrong. Nobody is defending the morality of the van attack. Nobody is defending the cover-up. However, people are taking issue with pretentious know-it-alls who only see what they want to see in order to promote their own agenda (through whining, more or less).

We actually have a name for people like that over here: conservative commentators. Congratulations, you're on the level of Glenn Beck with your ignorance.
 
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Wouldn't a RPG be important enough to spot out specifically?
I'm willing to bet they didn't see it before asking permission to engage.

So RPGs are actually visible in the video of what the gunner was looking at, and the gunner asked to engage because he saw "weapons," but you think engaging was wrongful because you're betting that the gunner didn't see the RPGs, and your only evidence is that he didn't mention them by name specifically when talking about "weapons"?

That's pretty thin. As thin as arguing that the insurgents got serial-crushed by some huge friggin' guy.
 
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