Israel attacks humanitarian aid convoy in international waters

Hey, you are more than entitled to state your perspective on here, it doesn't matter if people agree with you or not (for the record, I am pretty ambiguous on the Turkey/Israel relation as a nation, I really don't know enough about it to make a judgement)- just as long as you can calmly and rationally argue your opinions and back your facts up with sources, most people on here should be considerate. :)

Not being inflammatory here, just genuinely curious- have you been following the international (eg BBC, Reuters) coverage of the IDF statements (eg the alleged tampering with voice recordings described upthread)? If so, what is your stance on what the international media is reprting and do you agree with how the IDF has and is handling the situation (specifically the flotillas)? Again, just curious, as I have generally found the opinion of "the blockade is necessary but the IDF could have handled all of this better" to be that of the couple of Israeli citizens who have posted on this issue on another forum I frequent.

Gawd, i sound like a reporter :lol:
 
Hey, you are more than entitled to state your perspective on here, it doesn't matter if people agree with you or not (for the record, I am pretty ambiguous on the Turkey/Israel relation as a nation, I really don't know enough about it to make a judgement)- just as long as you can calmly and rationally argue your opinions and back your facts up with sources, most people on here should be considerate. :)

Not being inflammatory here, just genuinely curious- have you been following the international (eg BBC, Reuters) coverage of the IDF statements (eg the alleged tampering with voice recordings described upthread)? If so, what is your stance on what the international media is reprting and do you agree with how the IDF has and is handling the situation (specifically the flotillas)? Again, just curious, as I have generally found the opinion of "the blockade is necessary but the IDF could have handled all of this better" to be that of the couple of Israeli citizens who have posted on this issue on another forum I frequent.

Gawd, i sound like a reporter :lol:

There's no doubt it should have been handled better, the whole situation was a nightmare from the get go and we should never have allowed anyone to die there. I do however strongly believe the blockade has to stand and we obviously can't allow anyone who wants to waltz in there have his way but perhaps more delicately? I honestly don't know how they coulda handled it better, but I believe people who run a country such as Israel should have the answers in this kind of situation.

About international news agencies I honestly wouldn't know, I didn't follow CNN or the BBC or whoever covered this so I have no idea, as for the forgeries of sound recordings and photos I can say I don't condone it but on the other hand it's what the other side does day in and day out.
 
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I'm just gonna write down my opinion on this matter as a random Israeli citizen, I'm hoping not to be molested by haters or even objective people who disagree with me, but this is how it feels at the moment.
If anyone starts that sort of shit, I will personally trash them. I won't respond to all of your post, but I have a couple of questions I hope you'll be able to ask. :)

We tried ending it peacefully and encountered mercenaries from every known terrorist organization in the world
This. What evidence are there of "mercenaries from every known terrorist organization in the world"? As far as I know, that is a completely moot claim, there is nothing as of yet to corroberate it, and if I am to be honest, I think it's as damaging to the debate as the initial claim of the protesters that "Israeli commandos fired into sleeping people", both statements are false as far as the facts are concerned, and it's completely contraproductive.

At least until someone can prove that it's true, and at this point, that's pretty hard to do.

Weather you consider the Gaza blockade to be legal or not is really of least interest to us because of the simple fact (and this IS a fact) that if we lift it we will pay very dearly with civilian lives in a matter of days.
This blockade have been in effect for five years. Without looking at statistics, I can distinctly remember rocket attacks even after the blockade was implemented, I'm sure you won't dispute that. So, has the blockade worked? And while we are debating the blockade, why won't all humanitarian aid be let through (and I'm not just talking about fertalicer and cement, I'm talking about food, text books and pencils), what possible reason is there to keep out ie. macaroni?

I assure you that the minute we feel we can lift that blockade and not be attacked it will be lifted, as I assure you that if they allow us to have this small miniature piece of land to ourselves we will seek no fight with anyone, we have nowhere else to go and we will fight for this land till our last breath, but only if we are forced to.
And what about those who inhabited the land before you? Keep in mind, I support the existence of Israel, and will always support it, but from a philosofical point of view, what's your view as to the morality of it all?

I personally see no end to this conflict because we have no where else to go and I doubt the Islamic nations will ever agree to Israel's existence, the way I see it this conflict will either never end or Israel will end, there's simply no way to come to an agreement with the other side it seems, and trust me when I say, that's what we want most of all (the coming to agreement part).
Then I'll ask you another question.

Do you, personally, support the settlements? And if so, why? And disregarding the morality issue of the settlements, what about the pragmatic question of wether or not the settlements make Israel safer or less safe?

I'd appreciate your answers to these questions, and I'll be happy to answer questions you might have as to my views.

Ps. Jerusalem is a lovely city. Where in Jerusalem do you live?
 
About international news agencies I honestly wouldn't know, I didn't follow CNN or the BBC or whoever covered this so I have no idea, as for the forgeries of sound recordings and photos I can say I don't condone it but on the other hand it's what the other side does day in and day out.

I think this is an interesting conversation. My impression of the Israeli media is that it's free and includes difference voices, people that aren't afraid to voice their dissent. In that regards, I would say they are leaps and bounds ahead of the United States (at least in terms of broadcasting). Would you say that is accurate, aside from the print media, how has the television media in Israel covered this incident?
 
Great News!
Shooting "terrorist divers" several times in the head from a boat instead of picking them up and asking what they're up to is a novel new way of shooting oneself in the foot I must say.

[video=youtube;-kB24muqfLM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kB24muqfLM[/video]

Debate Israel style

More Great News!
Jewish organizations of Europe said:
?In a harbour in the Mediterranean a small vessel is waiting for a special mission. She will be sailing to Gaza during the second half of July. In order to avoid sabotage, the exact date and name of the port of departure will be announced only shortly before her launch.

- Our purpose is to call an end to the siege of Gaza, to this illegal collective punishment of the whole civilian population. Our boat is small, so our donations can only be symbolic: we are taking school bags, filled with donations from German school children, musical instruments and art materials, says Kate Leiterer, one of the organizers. ?For the medical services we are taking essential medicines and small medical equipment, and for the fishermen we are taking nets and tackle. We are liaising with the medical, educational and mental health services in Gaza.

- In attacking the Freedom Flotilla, Israel has once again demonstrated to the world a heinous brutality. But I know that there are very many Israelis who compassionately and bravely campaign for a just peace. With broadcasting journalists from mainstream television programmes accompanying our boat, Israel will have a great chance to show the world that there is another way, a way of courage rather than fear, a way of hope rather than hate'', says Edith Lutz, organizer and passenger on the ''Jewish boat''.

The ''J?dische Stimme'' (Jewish Voice? for a Just Peace in the Near East), along with her friends of EJJP (European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East) and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK) are sending a call to the leaders of the world: help Israel find her way back to reason, to a sense of humanity and a life without fear. ''Jewish Voice'' expects the political leaders of Israel and the world to guarantee a safe passage for the small vessel to Gaza, thus helping to form a bridge towards peace.?

To-the-point-news
[video=youtube;z82VocK-C8c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82VocK-C8c[/video]
 
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There is some news circulating that the Israelis had a "death list"...a booklet with names/pictures of people aboard they wanted to target. I'm a little suspicious about that at the moment, can't find any credible sources....will wait and see.

It is also being claimed that this attack was planned (albeit rather poorly) days or even months in advance. Back to rumors...Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, was in Israel days before the attack. A former IDF soldier whose father was a member of Irgun. If in fact the attack was planned in advance, it raises the possibility that he was aware of this.

Regardless, the fact that an individual with his background is in such a high position is cause for concern.
 
If anyone starts that sort of shit, I will personally trash them. I won't respond to all of your post, but I have a couple of questions I hope you'll be able to ask. :)


This. What evidence are there of "mercenaries from every known terrorist organization in the world"? As far as I know, that is a completely moot claim, there is nothing as of yet to corroberate it, and if I am to be honest, I think it's as damaging to the debate as the initial claim of the protesters that "Israeli commandos fired into sleeping people", both statements are false as far as the facts are concerned, and it's completely contraproductive.

At least until someone can prove that it's true, and at this point, that's pretty hard to do.

linky These kind of articles seem to be popping out lately and today on TV they said they found evidence that some were tied with Al Quaida, I don't know anymore but considering the IHH are one of Hamas' sponsors it's not hard to guess the connection is there. However, I do not know this for fact yet so it may have been too early to make this statement.


This blockade have been in effect for five years. Without looking at statistics, I can distinctly remember rocket attacks even after the blockade was implemented, I'm sure you won't dispute that. So, has the blockade worked? And while we are debating the blockade, why won't all humanitarian aid be let through (and I'm not just talking about fertalicer and cement, I'm talking about food, text books and pencils), what possible reason is there to keep out ie. macaroni?

As far as I know all humanitarian aid is allowed through after inspection. I don't know if you know this but currently the entire cargo from the flotilla is sitting on a dock in Ashdod because Hamas doesn't want to take it...I have no idea what kind of motive they could have to not take it, but there you have it, even after all of this we wanna to pass it through and they won't take it. Granted some things are denied on purpose but still, billions of dollars were streamed in there and only god knows where that money went, the kids are still just as hungry as before.

About the attacks, they still occur even now as we speak, but they are about 5% of what we used to get before the blockade. Let me ask you this: If they were to stop shooting their rockets into the hearts of cities and start talking would we really want to keep the blockade? what for? It's there to deny the deaths of innocent civilians, nothing else.


And what about those who inhabited the land before you? Keep in mind, I support the existence of Israel, and will always support it, but from a philosofical point of view, what's your view as to the morality of it all?

It's a hard question this, I may have been born a jew but really I'm an Atheist. I have no relation to religion what so ever and it seems people around here believe god promised them this land, which I consider to be total BS. In a strictly logical way I can see why they claim it is their land and I can only wish we weren't on it, but if you look far enough back we were all here together so saying we have no claim for the land is also somewhat wrong. I honestly think both sides have a claim for the land which is why I think dividing it is the only way, unfortunately we've been giving ground back since 67 and it's never enough...

Then I'll ask you another question.

Do you, personally, support the settlements? And if so, why? And disregarding the morality issue of the settlements, what about the pragmatic question of wether or not the settlements make Israel safer or less safe?

The settlements are an unfortunate necessity at the moment, arabs have been spreading across the land claiming new territories as their and the settlements stopped that in many places, you call them illegal but this is currently our land and yet were not allowed to build houses on it. Last month the whole world went insane because 500 new apartments were approved to be built in a neighborhood in Jerusalem and that just makes no sense to me, if we can't build here in our capital city without the world going crazy on us what's left? The settlements are needed until a permanent agreement is reached regarding said territories.

I'd appreciate your answers to these questions, and I'll be happy to answer questions you might have as to my views.

Ps. Jerusalem is a lovely city. Where in Jerusalem do you live?

You know the city? awesome ;) I live in Katamon which is smack bang in the middle of Jerusalem, but honestly the only reason I live here is because I can't stand the humidity down in the coast line (Tel Aviv, Haifa etc etc). Jerusalem is a pretty boring city to be young in :p
 
Mossad are the very best security service in the world - period. The rather right wing government Israel has at the moment direct both Mossad and the IDF - a not inconsiderable army, and most certainly the best force in the area. They have powerful motivation and so all in all Israel will survive for as long as they wish.
 
linky These kind of articles seem to be popping out lately and today on TV they said they found evidence that some were tied with Al Quaida, I don't know anymore but considering the IHH are one of Hamas' sponsors it's not hard to guess the connection is there. However, I do not know this for fact yet so it may have been too early to make this statement.
I think it is. Firstly, these are claims made by the IDF, itself a party of the dispute, furthermore, they are published in the Jerusalem Post, which I won't trust much more than the Norwegian paper Dagbladet, which is openly pro-Palestinian.

And even bearing that in mind, the article still states that there were 50 passengers "who could have terrorist connections", it doesn't in fact conclude.

As far as I know all humanitarian aid is allowed through after inspection. I don't know if you know this but currently the entire cargo from the flotilla is sitting on a dock in Ashdod because Hamas doesn't want to take it...I have no idea what kind of motive they could have to not take it, but there you have it, even after all of this we wanna to pass it through and they won't take it. Granted some things are denied on purpose but still, billions of dollars were streamed in there and only god knows where that money went, the kids are still just as hungry as before.
No one is denying that Hamas is a bunch of bastards, but why are some non-military aid denied? It is, so there must be a reason, don't you agree?

About the attacks, they still occur even now as we speak, but they are about 5% of what we used to get before the blockade. Let me ask you this: If they were to stop shooting their rockets into the hearts of cities and start talking would we really want to keep the blockade? what for? It's there to deny the deaths of innocent civilians, nothing else.
It still doesn't change the fact that the blockade didn't stop the rocket attacks in five years. I do agree that it would be very clever of Hamas to stop the attacks. Personally, I'd welcome it as great news, I think the targeting of civilians is absolute despickable. But what guarantee has Hamas that Israel will want to talk even then? Is there any indications from Israel that a complete stop in the attacks will prompt discussions and negotiations? In your personal opinion, would the current Israeli government talk directly with Hamas even if the stopped the attacks?

It's a hard question this, I may have been born a jew but really I'm an Atheist. I have no relation to religion what so ever and it seems people around here believe god promised them this land, which I consider to be total BS. In a strictly logical way I can see why they claim it is their land and I can only wish we weren't on it, but if you look far enough back we were all here together so saying we have no claim for the land is also somewhat wrong. I honestly think both sides have a claim for the land which is why I think dividing it is the only way, unfortunately we've been giving ground back since 67 and it's never enough...
If you look at recent genetic research, you will discover that the population of Palestine (for this discussion, I'm limiting "Palestine" to Israel and the occupied territories) in ie. 1890 could trace their lineage back to what we might loosly call "the original jews". In other words, the population of Palestine was muslim, christian and jewish, but genetic science now shows us that the muslims and christians of Palestine were converted jews. The fact that there were a considerable number of jews in Palestine also points at this.

In this context, would you say that the moral ownership of the land belonged to a people (irrelevant of their religion at that time in history) who could trace their lineage back to before the time of Jesus, rather than a religious group with their roots in Europe for the last centuries?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying there shouldn't be an Israel, but I thought it would be interesting to debate this point, that's all. :)

The settlements are an unfortunate necessity at the moment, arabs have been spreading across the land claiming new territories as their and the settlements stopped that in many places, you call them illegal but this is currently our land and yet were not allowed to build houses on it. Last month the whole world went insane because 500 new apartments were approved to be built in a neighborhood in Jerusalem and that just makes no sense to me, if we can't build here in our capital city without the world going crazy on us what's left? The settlements are needed until a permanent agreement is reached regarding said territories.
That's because East Jerusalem is occupied, illegally or not, East-Jerusalem is not recognized as a part of Israel, neither is the West Bank and neither is Gaza. The territories listed does not belong to Israel, therefore any building whatsoever is illegal, even if the occupation was legal, the settlements would still be illegal.

Furthermore, isn't it correct to say that any building of settlements is a paramount risk for Israeli national security? The settlements are illegal, that much is clear, but why keep building them when the only price is more trouble? It is very contraproductive, it infuriates pretty much everybody else, and in the end, Israel loses for every single settlement built. They shouldn't be there, and there shouldn't be built more of them. I'm pretty moderate, and I detest the extremism on both sides, the polarisation of the debate and the fundamentalits, but on this issue, I can't be moved. The settlements must go, and they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

You know the city? awesome ;) I live in Katamon which is smack bang in the middle of Jerusalem, but honestly the only reason I live here is because I can't stand the humidity down in the coast line (Tel Aviv, Haifa etc etc). Jerusalem is a pretty boring city to be young in :p
Know it.. I've gotten lost in it, that's for sure. I spent some time traveling the middle east, in Israel we stayed at the Grand Imperial, it's close to Jaffa Gate. Damp as hell, run down, but interesting history, and a good location. I think it's a wonderful city, no matter your religion, it's touching to see the sights, and the people, arabs, and jews are wonderful. It's a nice climate though, I'll send you a message if I plan on returning, and we'll debate this over a couple of beers. :)
 
Israel and Outremer
By ROSS DOUTHAT Published: June 6, 2010

Watching the Israeli government?s botched, bloody attempt to enforce its blockade of Gaza, I kept thinking about Outremer.

That?s the name ? French for ?beyond the sea? ? given to the states that the Crusaders established in the Holy Land during the High Middle Ages: the principality of Antioch, the counties of Edessa and Tripoli, and the kingdom of Jerusalem.

Out of a mix of amnesia and self-abnegation, we tend to remember the Crusader states only as deplorable exercises in Western aggression. (Never mind that in an age defined by conquest and reconquest, they were no less legitimate than the Muslim states they warred against ? which had themselves been founded atop once-Christian territories.) The analogy between Israel and Outremer is usually drawn by Israel?s enemies: ?Jews and Crusaders? is one of Osama bin Laden?s favorite epithets, and Palestinian radicals often pine for another Saladin to drive the Israelis into the sea.

But Israel?s friends can learn something from Outremer as well. Like today?s Jewish republic, the Crusader kingdoms were small states forged by military valor, based in the Middle East but oriented westward, with distant patrons and potential foes just next door. Like Israel, they were magnets for fanatics from east and west alike. And when they eventually fell ? after surviving for longer than Israel has currently existed ? it was for reasons that are directly relevant to the challenges facing the Israeli government today.

The first reason was geographic: the Holy Land is easier to conquer than defend, because its topograpy and regional position leave it perpetually vulnerable to invasion. The second was diplomatic: the Crusaders were perpetually falling out with their major neighbors, from Byzantium to Egypt, and the support they enjoyed from Western Europe was too limited to save them from extinction. The third was demographic: the ruling class of Outremer, primarily Frankish knights and their retainers, was a minority in a territory whose inhabitants were largely Eastern Orthodox and Muslim, and they had difficulty achieving the kind of integration that long-term stability required.

A decade ago, before the collapse of the peace process, the Israelis seemed to be faring better than Outremer on all three fronts. Their potent armed forces and nuclear deterrent more than offset the weakness of their geographic position. After decades of isolation, they had forged reasonably stable relationships with many regional powers ? including Turkey, Jordan and Egypt ? and an enduring bond with the world?s superpower, the United States. Their substantial Arab minority was better-treated and better-integrated than minority populations in almost any other Middle Eastern state. And they appeared to be disentangling themselves from the long-term occupation of a much larger Arab population in Gaza and the West Bank.

Ten years later, though, only the military advantage endures. Diplomatically and demographically, Israel increasingly faces the same problems that bedeviled the 12th-century kings of Jerusalem.

In the wake of the Gaza and Lebanon wars, and now the blockade-running fiasco, the Jewish state is as isolated on the world stage as it?s been since the dark Zionism-is-racism years of the 1970s. Meanwhile, its relationship with its Arab citizens is increasingly strained, the occupation of the Palestinian West Bank seems destined to continue indefinitely, and both Arab populations are growing so swiftly that Jews could soon be a minority west of the Jordan River.

Israel can probably live with diplomatic isolation so long as the American public remains staunchly on its side. But it will have a harder time surviving the demographic transformation of its territory. If the Jewish state can?t extricate itself from the West Bank, it may be forced to choose between the quasi-apartheid of a permanent occupation, and the dissolution that would likely follow from giving Palestinians a significant voice in Israel?s politics.

Israel?s critics often make this extrication sound easy. In reality, it promises to involve enormous sacrifices, of land and everyday security alike ? whether in the form of extraordinary concessions to a divided Palestinian leadership, or a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank that would be more wrenching than the 2005 retreat from Gaza.

What?s more, either approach would almost certainly invite stepped-up violence from the irreconcilable Palestinian factions and their Iranian and Syrian backers, who will see any retreat as a cue to escalate the struggle.

As Walter Russell Mead put it recently, Israel may ?have to pay virtually the full price for peace ... without getting full peace.? Nobody should blame Israelis for shying from this possibility.

Yet it may be the only way to guarantee their survival as a nation. Outremer was finally overrun by Muslim armies. But if Israel is destroyed, it will be destroyed from within.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/opinion/07douthat.html?ref=opinion

Found this article interesting.
 
No one is denying that Hamas is a bunch of bastards, but why are some non-military aid denied? It is, so there must be a reason, don't you agree?

The only reason I know for this is to put pressure on Hamas to stop the bombing. It's like children saying "if you won't stop bombing we won't give you X and Y". the hope is that the pressure coming from the common person in Gaza would make Hamas stop the bombing and then they can have whatever they want. It's dirty playing but there's a war down there and we try to limit the casualties in every possible way, this one I personally do not agree with.


It still doesn't change the fact that the blockade didn't stop the rocket attacks in five years. I do agree that it would be very clever of Hamas to stop the attacks. Personally, I'd welcome it as great news, I think the targeting of civilians is absolute despickable. But what guarantee has Hamas that Israel will want to talk even then? Is there any indications from Israel that a complete stop in the attacks will prompt discussions and negotiations? In your personal opinion, would the current Israeli government talk directly with Hamas even if the stopped the attacks?

It's not exactly black and white since we honestly don't believe Hamas want peace. If they stop the bombing and help with cooling down the area it would definitely be a start but bare in mind this is a terrorist organization that has been bombing buses in Jerusalem long before it had control of Gaza. There are old wounds there that would be very hard to bridge. If they would at some point actually want peace, they would have to show it very loudly and clearly cause they've been stirring up war in the area since before I was born.

If you look at recent genetic research, you will discover that the population of Palestine (for this discussion, I'm limiting "Palestine" to Israel and the occupied territories) in ie. 1890 could trace their lineage back to what we might loosly call "the original jews". In other words, the population of Palestine was muslim, christian and jewish, but genetic science now shows us that the muslims and christians of Palestine were converted jews. The fact that there were a considerable number of jews in Palestine also points at this.

In this context, would you say that the moral ownership of the land belonged to a people (irrelevant of their religion at that time in history) who could trace their lineage back to before the time of Jesus, rather than a religious group with their roots in Europe for the last centuries?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying there shouldn't be an Israel, but I thought it would be interesting to debate this point, that's all. :)

Both the "religious group with their roots in Europe for the last centuries" and the muslims who were here in 1890 can probably prove they were here very long ago so the stakes are even on both sides. I'll say it again, I believe fairly diving the land is the logical move here, would both sides agree with me? I highly doubt that.


That's because East Jerusalem is occupied, illegally or not, East-Jerusalem is not recognized as a part of Israel, neither is the West Bank and neither is Gaza. The territories listed does not belong to Israel, therefore any building whatsoever is illegal, even if the occupation was legal, the settlements would still be illegal.

Furthermore, isn't it correct to say that any building of settlements is a paramount risk for Israeli national security? The settlements are illegal, that much is clear, but why keep building them when the only price is more trouble? It is very contraproductive, it infuriates pretty much everybody else, and in the end, Israel loses for every single settlement built. They shouldn't be there, and there shouldn't be built more of them. I'm pretty moderate, and I detest the extremism on both sides, the polarisation of the debate and the fundamentalits, but on this issue, I can't be moved. The settlements must go, and they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Allow me to remain silent on thsi subject, I simply don't know enough about it to make a proper opinion, I usually tend to stay as far as I can from news and politics but living in israel there are some things that you just know, settlements are one of those subjects I somehow managed to avoid....

Know it.. I've gotten lost in it, that's for sure. I spent some time traveling the middle east, in Israel we stayed at the Grand Imperial, it's close to Jaffa Gate. Damp as hell, run down, but interesting history, and a good location. I think it's a wonderful city, no matter your religion, it's touching to see the sights, and the people, arabs, and jews are wonderful. It's a nice climate though, I'll send you a message if I plan on returning, and we'll debate this over a couple of beers. :)

There's no doubt this is a great city for tourists, hell it's pretty much made of history and there's plenty to see. And hell yeah, if you get to come by again the first one is on me ;)
 
Found this article interesting.

That was interesting. It paints a very bleak picture. Given the large population and the size of the West Bank and Gaza, I don't even know how viable a Palestinian state is. I've always thought that maybe Jordan could sacrifice some land considering its population and size and the fact that it was part of the original British Mandate, but it's unlikely.
 
It's not exactly black and white since we honestly don't believe Hamas want peace. If they stop the bombing and help with cooling down the area it would definitely be a start but bare in mind this is a terrorist organization that has been bombing buses in Jerusalem long before it had control of Gaza. There are old wounds there that would be very hard to bridge. If they would at some point actually want peace, they would have to show it very loudly and clearly cause they've been stirring up war in the area since before I was born.

Thankfully, I can't even recall the last suicide bombing. I hope we've seen the end of them over there. As far as rocket attacks, I'm not sure how much control Hamas actually has. I don't see how they would benefit from continuing them. In fact, I remember that they were arresting people who were firing rockets at one point. Assuming they have the desire, I don't think they have the means to police the situation.

We all the know the saying about how one mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter. The ANC (in South Africa) had a military wing, and they have been the ruling party since the early 90s now and Nelson Mandela is considered a hero.
 
I don't get it, you are under blockade, occupied and have very short life expectancies, what do you do? Breed!

Seriously though its the worst idea in the world.
 
Israel vs Gaza essentially boils down to the age old war of Jews vs Islam.

We could build an island in the middle of the Atlantic, call it Israel, move all the worlds jews there and Muslims would still try to find a reason why it should be wiped off the planet.

Both sides have to be neutered simultaneously and harshly, its not the middle-ages any more and this really doesnt have any place in the modern world.
 
Israel vs Gaza essentially boils down to the age old war of Jews vs Islam.

Like most wars, it's about land and/or power. Religion is used to motivate people to fight, that's all. Because if it is about religion, then there is no chance for peace because that issue can never be solved. Peace can only come with stability and opportunity. It's why in some countries you can have a church, synagogue, and mosque side by side without incident.

If you give people something to live for, then there is nothing worth dying for.
 
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The only reason I know for this is to put pressure on Hamas to stop the bombing. It's like children saying "if you won't stop bombing we won't give you X and Y". the hope is that the pressure coming from the common person in Gaza would make Hamas stop the bombing and then they can have whatever they want. It's dirty playing but there's a war down there and we try to limit the casualties in every possible way, this one I personally do not agree with.
Putting pressure on civilians is a common way to win wars. It's just that.. it has rarely worked. One of the most important reasons to start the bombing of German cities was to break the fighting spirit of the German population. Well, it didn't work, and just like the British a few years later, the bombing of German cities just made the civilian population angrier.

I'm not equating the two. After all, Israel is not carpet bombing Gaza, but the idea of pressuring civilians to win wars really doesn't work.

It's not exactly black and white since we honestly don't believe Hamas want peace. If they stop the bombing and help with cooling down the area it would definitely be a start but bare in mind this is a terrorist organization that has been bombing buses in Jerusalem long before it had control of Gaza. There are old wounds there that would be very hard to bridge. If they would at some point actually want peace, they would have to show it very loudly and clearly cause they've been stirring up war in the area since before I was born.
I get that. In that respect, I think it's weird the Israeli leaders who actively financed Hamas in the 80s to fuck the PLO hasn't been crucified, but let's move on.

There are voices who say Israel is not interested in peace. This latest government hasn't silenced those voices, especially the nutter you've got at the foreign department. But what incentive does Hamas have to do anything when they know they can't expect anything the other way?

Both the "religious group with their roots in Europe for the last centuries" and the muslims who were here in 1890 can probably prove they were here very long ago so the stakes are even on both sides. I'll say it again, I believe fairly diving the land is the logical move here, would both sides agree with me? I highly doubt that.
I think you'll find a lot of people on both sides who wouldn't agree with you. Some of your right wingers in Israel are extreme enough to make our home grown right wingers look like pussycats, and I won't start on the most extremes on the Palestinian side.

However, as for the idea of ownership, I'm just having a philosophical argument here, wouldn't you agree that the people who had lived in Palestine non-stop for 3-4000 years had a bigger right than people who had their roots in Europe for the last couple of centuries?

Allow me to remain silent on thsi subject, I simply don't know enough about it to make a proper opinion, I usually tend to stay as far as I can from news and politics but living in israel there are some things that you just know, settlements are one of those subjects I somehow managed to avoid....
I respect that. The thing just is, the settlements can only hurt Israel, settlers seem to be like the Cuban-Americans in Florida. They're no majority, but crossing them can get you into serious political trouble, which is why there's still serious, otherwise pragmatic politicians who'll continue that particular, err, road to doom, if you pardon my French. Supporting the settlements is about as sensible as hitting oneself on the head with a hammer repeatedly, because one can. It's still stupid.

There's no doubt this is a great city for tourists, hell it's pretty much made of history and there's plenty to see. And hell yeah, if you get to come by again the first one is on me ;)
I hate tourists! I'm afraid I'm a photographer, we're not all that popular in your country, I'm afraid. Especially not Norwegian photographers.. ;)

If I return, I'll give you a wink. Just keep in mind I prefer Taybee to Maccabee. It's not political, I just enjoy the former more than the latter. :)
 
Like most wars, it's about land and/or power. Religion is used to motivate people to fight, that's all. Because if it is about religion, then there is no chance for peace because that issue can never be solved. Peace can only come with stability and opportunity. It's why in some countries you can have a church, synagogue, and mosque side by side without incident.

Israel/Gaza is the one issue that i think is completely unfixable, successive governments and outsiders might try to plaster over the cracks but they will keep appearing.

Palestinians want the entire of their territory back, including Israel.
Israelis will never let this happen as were else would they go?

Nothing will happen until either Palestinians stop wanting their land back, or Israel as a state disappears. (both are never going to happen, thus unfixable)
 
Which Palestinian factions wants all of Israel back? Hamas are one, but they can be moved, PLO hasn't claimed the whole of Israel since the 80s. Heck, even Hezbollah isn't insisting on it, they will accept any deal the Palestinian parties accept.
 
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