real cars gone wrong...

Oh good, that wasn't hideously racist at all. Thank you for playing.

Dude, cool down, I was joking. In fact I have a lot of asian friends and I am not racist in any way.
Its just that it should be allowed to make fun of people who so ignorantly copy anything they get their hands on, and it costs the industry here billions in other sectors already. So don't act like there is no problem.
 
"In fact, some of my friends are black!"

You are allowed to make fun of them, but for their mistakes and errors. If you make fun of them based purely on their race, that's... racist. Sorry.
 
"In fact, some of my friends are black!"

You are allowed to make fun of them, but for their mistakes and errors. If you make fun of them based purely on their race, that's... racist. Sorry.

It's kinda like RUSH HOUR... Chris Tucker can make fun of black people, but Jackie Chan can't...


Moral of the story: Only black people can make racist jokes!













jk!jk!
 
I remember hearing something a while back that Boeing was considering giving China a license to make planes for them. If that's true, I suspect it won't be long before we start seeing airliner knockoffs coming from China.:no:

Just think of it: you could drive your knockoff Toyota to the airport and hop on an imitation Airbus.
 
vRS said:
Thank god they didn't copy some really beautiful cars, a Chinese Ferrari? no thanks.....

If I can easily tweak it to look legit, I'd be all over it. Seam weld the chassis, weld in a roll cage, and a 454 LSX and I'd have one hell of a nice car.

Though they'd probably tweak the prancing horse to look more like a shitting donkey.

argatoga said:
1.jpg

DSC00971.JPG

At least the Japaneses made copies which didn't suck or killed you if you rear ended someone at 2 mph.

Bad comparison. Considering the Lotus was FWD, it automatically sucked more than the miata/mx-5. Plus the Japanese do what they do best, make everyone elses completely shit for working (yet noble) idea's, and make them work.

You were suppost to use the good elan, the old elan.
Like so:
lotus%20elan%20sprint%20web.jpg
 
We wont buy theyr cars in 5 years because they ar the best thats for sure. :)
Because when they be the best cars, we will be flying BMW space ships to the moon and back and the new Veyron 5000 will beat the speed of light and so on...

:banana:

But seriously I dont think I would buy a car from china. Whats the point?

Well, when Japan or Korea started building cars, obviously they weren't copying but they were pretty much what the Chinese cars are at now, behind their competitors but they eventually caught up, so why can't that happen to the chinese market?
Have you seen the first few Korean cars? actually, just look at the mid 90's Korean car and compare them with now, they have improved alot, obviously still copying (Honda Accord vs. Hyundai Sonata) but improving

after the crash tests i will never ever buy one of their cars ;)

So if you looked at a crash test from a 1960's, 70's European car, you won't buy any European car? Every car manufacturer has to start somewhere.
 
I actually agree, as much as I don't like it to be the case (it means even more competition for us European Engineers as the Chinese become more recognised in being capable). China may be playing copycat and catchup in a number of industries (including automotive), but they are improving extremely fast. And I have no doubt there will come a time where they can produce a similar quality product at a lower price point to the traditional companies.

In fact, I believe we're already starting to see this in the IT industry. If we haven't been for a few years already!

As for safety, yes they're really bad. But even though other companies have a head start, the younger Chinese companies can learn off of their backs and financing. All the research has been done and it wouldn't be too difficult to start using available knowledge, materials and a bit of reverse engineering to start figuring out how crumple zones work etc. In fact, I'm sure that the Chinese automotive companies could probably get most of the details directly off of the EU if they expressed an interest to sell their cars in this market! Afterall, there are now stringent safety requirements which the EU has guidelines on.

We may not be buying any of their cars in the near future, but I'll bet they're going to become more widespread in the mid-future and serious competitors in the not too far off future! (And it does scare me a little bit!)

As for the cars pictured in this thread. No thanks to all of them! But I'm not surprised at the extent to which they copy given their past practises.
 
I see a whole lot of problems for the chinese companies copying their western counterparts. It's not that they shouldn't copy something as much as it is that they're not thinking straight in terms of their company's futures. If they're planning to sell the cars only in china, they're probably going to succeed 100%, but when they'll try to export that, they'll fail.

Sure, it's easy to immitate something and forget about the R&D costs, get cheap metals to build them and hire cheap labour to put them together ... that makes the cars cost so much less and puts them ahead of the western competition in pricing, right?

No, not really. See, even though China may have never signed any international copyright laws or anything, western countries did, and when they're going to try to sell their cars there, they're going to be met with fierce opposition.

The price is not enough to make it work: there's the passing of road tests and crash tests, emission standards ..etc. (and that's only to make it legal for them to even put their product on the market), so they'll need to make the cars from the actual materials that are in the blueprints... not as cheap as you can imagine.

Also, there's the opposition they'll be facing from the companies they copied from ... those companies will sue them continuously, and will drag them through courts for probably the rest of their business lives. More costs eh ...

Add to that the fact that they copied cars that are quite every-day and people know about them, they'll give a bad public image. Plus, people will take up the habit of noticing the differences between the original cars and the immitations and will probably make fun of all such copied brands. People who can afford the originals will surely buy the originals rather than the risky copies, and people who can't afford the originals will not buy the copies as they'll be made fun of every time they go to the supermarket.

So who in the western world would still buy their cars, really? Only the few people who really don't care what the world thinks of them and they can't afford to give a couple of more thousands to get the originals ? (because that's what the difference will actually come to) Those poeple will most probably buy used cars, as they won't want to invest that much money in new cars, even if they're discounted. And to them it won't matter that the car doesn't have a new-car smell. (remember, these people aren't conscious of their public image)

So: domestic sales: probably will throw out their competitors in China.
International sales: what international sales ??

I speak this with experience, as a former Romanian national, with romanian cars such as Dacia, Olcit and ARO ... which were just dreadfull copies of Renaults, Peugeots, Ladas and russian military jeeps. The only car that sold internationally was the Dacia, in the middle east. In VERY small numbers. THAT'S IT. So I'm not really expecting these to sell internationally either. Only after a decade ... that's right A DECADE of being in business did Dacia actually design a car ... and that's just after Renault bought half of the company. And they still don't sell so well.
 
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^I see where you come from, but out there were a dozen companies and hundreds more producing cars in China and it is just a current temporary situation because they lack R&D costs and so on, but once they understand the whole concept and have some revenue, they will start developing cars of their own.

And if you say they are going to copy cars for the next 20-30 years, that is not going to happen. In Hong Kong (where its pretty much my home), about 3 years ago, fake-sony DVD players from China started popping up on the market and such, and I know that I've seen recordable DVD players before I ever saw them on the international market, whether they stole the design or really designed them is beyond my knowledge, but I hope its the latter.

Same goes to mobile phones, when I made a quick visit to my dealer in july, I had the Motorola V3x back then and they had the exact same phone (Chinese Replica), with 3.2megapixel camera, a 1gb internal storage, much quicker processing (hell, it could even play divx) and it was usable. I didn't believe the dealer so i asked him if I could borrow the phone for the weekend (left the deposit) and went home and took pictures with it (pics were actually better), could play DivX vids pretty smooth and it was all in the same size as the normal phone. Obviously I wouldn't buy the phone but it just showed that China does have to technology to compete, but they just lack the word Design.

Obviously I'm not saying that the CRV, X5, Smart replicas are better than the Honda, BMW Mercedes counterpart, but one day, it might be.
And Vladmitsu, have you seen the rate China is developing? My dad is in the contruction field and he says that cities such as Shanghai are developing quicker than any other city he has seen, I've been to Shanghai only 3 times in my life, each about 1 year apart and everytime I visit, there seems to be taller skyscrapers and alot more development since my last visit.
 
I remember hearing something a while back that Boeing was considering giving China a license to make planes for them. If that's true, I suspect it won't be long before we start seeing airliner knockoffs coming from China.:no:
There's a difference between getting the license to make copies from the original company, and blatantly ripping off another like the cars featured in this case.
 
i dont think the japanese completely copied, although alot of their more common sports cars deffinetly take alot of inspiration from western origins, but atleast they copied cars that where proven classics(MR2 to Fiat X1/9, Miata to original Elan) instead of just vomiting out random cars that look decent,

somebody explain to me where the inspiration for the Toyota 2000GT came from, im atleast not aware of such a car(yes i know it WAS a datson, but still thats japanese ideas to japanese ideas, not western to japanese)

Toyota_2000GT.jpg
looks more like something TVR later copied in the 80s, i really dont know any direct european translation
 
once they have some revenue, they will start developing cars of their own.

...
And Vladmitsu, have you seen the rate China is developing? My dad is in the contruction field and he says that cities such as Shanghai are developing quicker than any other city he has seen, I've been to Shanghai only 3 times in my life, each about 1 year apart and everytime I visit, there seems to be taller skyscrapers and alot more development since my last visit.
andyhui01:
I'm not saying that chinese companies don't have the means or the expertise to produce advanced products, or to design advanced technology. what I'm saying is that in the automotive sector it's going to take a longer time to come to par with other international producers.

That's not because they can or can't design things or maybe can't afford to design things, it's because of economies of scale. To bring the price of a product down, an industry has to produce more items. Thus, to bring the costs and prices of the cars to a point of direct competition with other international companies, they'd have to produce quite a number of cars ... and of course, sell all of them. Now here's the problem: china may be one of the highest growing economies at the moment (and it is, as a business student I'm very aware of it), but the fact is that the average income for most people is not very big. So China's a very good and big market ... but it's most effective for low value items, like cellphones and dvd players as you said. But cars, that's another thing ... these are expensive items in terms of a person's expenses, not a business's expenses.
So if the automobile companies can't really count on the exports ... and with their current products the first wave doesn't look promising ... they have to count on their domestic sales to grow financially (in order to ultimately have enough money to spend on proper R&D). But how well would that go with the current personal incomes in China? ... I say they'd have to wait a while to evolve ... the economy is not there yet, it's growing at a pace that beats everything else, but it still needs time.

Plus, their business approach to firing up the automotive industry isn't that good. What they should do is what the americans have always done when they're falling behind in some department: if you don't have talent, import talent. Get foreign automotive engineers to design a few at first, sell those in large numbers, evolve from there. Good business means doing pretty much everything possible to make it work at it's most efficient pace. Why exactly they opted for the "let's keep to ourselves" version is beyond me ... many other chinese companies have gotten expertise from abroad before, in many cases very successfully. Getting someone with experience and already in the industry on their side is the way to go... at least in the beginning.

Now, what they did instead is copy designs and pretty much made the automotive industry mad at them ... now experienced designers might not even want to work for them anymore for any price from fear of being ripped off and robbed of their credit. That's a totally wrong approach to business.
That's why I foresee a slow growth ... they'll get there, but not as fast as you might think.

And what's with the "Vladmitsu" man ? is it a typo or you making fun of me? not cool. :thumbsdown:
 
"In fact, some of my friends are black!"

You are allowed to make fun of them, but for their mistakes and errors. If you make fun of them based purely on their race, that's... racist. Sorry.

I call blatant copying of other people's products a big mistake or error. But anyway, this is my last post regarding that topic because its not leading anywhere, call me whatever you like.
 
somebody explain to me where the inspiration for the Toyota 2000GT came from, im atleast not aware of such a car(yes i know it WAS a datson, but still thats japanese ideas to japanese ideas, not western to japanese)
Toyota_2000GT.jpg
looks more like something TVR later copied in the 80s, i really dont know any direct european translation

The original inspiration for the 2000GT was the Jaguar E-Type, with the long bonnet, cabin right in the back, 6-cylinder engine and such. The Toyota was of course reliable and much better built.
 
Toyota_2000GT.jpg

Looks more like something TVR later copied in the 80s, i really dont know any direct european translation
Umm, what!? In the same way a Ferrari Enzo looks like a Ford Focus...? :rolleyes: The super square and sharp 80s Wedge designs by Oliver Winterbottom is as far as sportscars go perhaps furtherest away you can get from the curvy 2000GT...:blink:

Just take the 420 SEAC as an example...
F05_TVR_420_SEAC_1987.JPG


In fact, TVR has never copied anyone, their designs have always been unique. Just look at what their current designs; Tuscan, Sagaris, Tamora...
 
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The main reason these companies are blooming are becuase of the people who buy them. In my management class, we learn that 85 percent of the car buyers in the world are Price oriented, ie they go for the cheaper product. Indian automobile market is almost flooded by Maruti who have joint ventures with Suzuki and Hindustan Motors. The thing is, my parents have owned a Maruti Suzuki 800 for quite a few years until I came to germany and my uncle still drives a Maruti Suzuki Zen(I believe its the Alto model available around here) and the thing is, they almost never ever ever break down. Its as reliable as a chair, or a pencil for that matter.
 
Hey everyone, I'm a CHINESE. Pure chinese living in Singapore. Only related to China in the distant past.
Anyway, China is both the heaven and hell for cars. Been to China twice this year. Most common were the Honda CRV imitations down there, including a US-version Toyota Corolla imitation, which looks a little sharper than the real Corolla, though I have serious doubts about everything else about it.:blink:
And if you go to mojor cities like Shanghai or Beijing, it's a heaven for cars. Brand new Porsche and Ferraris appear almost every 10 minutes you walk in the streets! They don't have old or classic cars down there 'cause of it's only very recent developement.
I personally think Dubai is a better bet for those people who want to invest.
 
somebody explain to me where the inspiration for the Toyota 2000GT came from, im atleast not aware of such a car(yes i know it WAS a datson, but still thats japanese ideas to japanese ideas, not western to japanese)

Toyota_2000GT.jpg
looks more like something TVR later copied in the 80s, i really dont know any direct european translation

opel GT?
gt70_ulko2.jpg
 
Bone the only way the 2000GT was a copy of the OPEL was if Toyota had access to internal designs at opel back in 68. They were only seperated by about 1 year in release.

Ottobon: Datsun and Toyota have never been the same. Datsun is now Nissan.

The 2000GT and Nissan Z's took from the E-type. And arguably did a damn good job at it.
 
Edit: thedguy, the design for the 2000GT was originally offered to Datsun, but rejected, so Toyota picked it up, hence the Datsun connection.

Considering the 2000GT was designed by Albrecht Goertz of BMW 507 fame, it was hardly Japanese design at all. Did the Opel GT have any Goertz input, I wonder?

As for the Chinese copying deal: Every time there's an upstart in an industry, it has to start somewhere, and established players always fall on the copying and ripoff accusation to try and shut them down. True as that is, it's inevitable: auto industry innovations spread industry-wide at a very fast pace, ie turbocharging diesels, paddle-shifts, FWD econocars, often with little to no licensing fees to the original innovators. Is VW paying the Ferrari F1 gearbox makers for its DSG? Yes, I realize these analogies are imperfect, but the point is that innovation will get snapped up by competitors, and these Chinese companies are merely taking it to its logical conclusion.

On the flipside, they can only do this because they are, at the moment, niche players. Once they get big, even without legal action, they'll be forced to innovate, because that's the only way they can get better; they won't remain as copycat counterfeiters, unless they want to remain marginalized, and no successful business wants to stay second-class forever. After all, it was only after it got big in the US that Lexus began cultivating a brand identity separate from its Benz-cloning past. It's a simple issue of maturity. Let them grow up, and then see pound on them, but in the marketplace.

As for the moment, think who's buying these copycars. They are the type of consumer who is likely buying a car for the first time, and couldn't afford a European or Japanese box anyway, so in a sense there are no sales being lost. When they start making money, they'll get truly brand conscious, and being Chinese, that's practically guaranteed. I'm one, and cannot bring myself to wear a Timex watch, aka a Corolla for the wrist, for example. IMO, these knockoffs will be only temporary, and something unique will come out of China, given time.
 
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