Best home defense shotgun?

I have a Remington 870 Express shotgun for my home defense needs, along with a Browning 9mm handgun. I'm very happy with both, and haven't had problems with either.

I'd suggest going to your local gun range, and skeet shooting range and ask them what they'd suggest. I personally am not a shotgun enthusiast, the Remington was a gift from my grandfather. Now, if you were looking for rifles, or handguns, i'd have a few suggestions.
 
^ No offense, but you don't know what you are talking about. With pump action shotguns the magazine is the tube below the barrel and it's built into the structure of the gun. You can remove the end of the mag to replace or service the spring, but on most models you can't separate it from the gun.

:lol: I think he's talking about this sort of magazine:

Guns.gif

I am indeed talking about that kind of magazine! The kind you read. I tell people looking at cars in the UK to buy WhatCar - as they give boring but useful info on every car on sale, and on areas like reliability, ease of use and so on. It's a very dull read but very handy if you actually want to buy a car (as opposed to read about them for fun, which is what I usually do). As I said, I don't know if there is such a magazine or website - that gives professional reviews of guns - but if there is it'd be a good place to start.

And a question of my own - are there gun shop chains in the US? It seems in the UK there are chain shops for everything - supermarkets, off licences, newsagents, bakers etc etc. Are there chain stores for guns? Or are they all 'mam and pap' style local affairs?
 
For a starter 12 gauge shotgun, there are many options - Mossberg 500 (a personal favorite), Remington 870, Winchester 1300. They come in many configurations and lengths, and all three of those start for under $200 USD. They can be configured out to cost over $1000 USD if you go nuts with options and extras - but a good basic shotgun will be around $200. Used, they're even cheaper. There are other options available, depending on budget and intended use. (Example: You get it in the home defense configuration, but would like to also be able to hunt other game with it - different length and type barrels would be useful, etc.)

Of the "Big Three" pump shotguns, I prefer the Mossberg line. The Mossberg differs from the Remington and the Winchester in that instead of having the safety control ahead of or behind the trigger guard, it is on top of the "tang" - right where you can see it and right where your thumb can easily actuate it and check its status by touch. I prefer this layout above those of the Rem or the Win. The Mossberg home-defense configuration is also cheaper to buy than the others, but there slightly less aftermarket accessories for it than the other two. Other than that, all three are pretty much the same.


That said, I prefer my defense/combat shotguns to be magazine fed. The SPAS line is hard to get and hideously expensive. The AA-12 is not available for civilian ownership, and the USAS-12 is restricted and expensive. I bought a Saiga-12 instead. You can get them for about $500, and you can get 5, 8 or 10 round detachable magazines for them. You can even get a 20 round drum for those times when all of Watts is rioting and they've come to visit *you*.

saiga12_pair.jpg

Yes, those are 12 gauge shotguns. Yes, they are legal to own in the US (except in CA, NJ, and MA).

And a question of my own - are there gun shop chains in the US? It seems in the UK there are chain shops for everything - supermarkets, off licences, newsagents, bakers etc etc. Are there chain stores for guns? Or are they all 'mam and pap' style local affairs?

There are a few regional chains that carry guns as part of their normal inventory. Even Walmart, a department store, carries guns as part of their sales merchandise. There are no chains that sell "only" guns.

As for the review magazines on guns, they rarely have anything bad to say about a weapon, which makes the decision a bit harder than it could be. To their credit, modern weapons rarely actually have anything actually *bad* wrong with them.
 
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thats for overzealous faggots, i honestly hate that rule, if there not moving there is NO reason to mutilate their body, unless that is they raped your daughter or something.


Personally i think the most important thing to look for in any decent shotgun is a loud pump-action sound, that way the'll be running before you even have a chance to meet face to face. No need for confrontation if they intruders know who their messing with means business.

That is for military combat. If the cops find that you continued to put rounds into the guy after he was down then you will face charges (Unless you are in Texas or Colorado... probably). The idea is that you shoot to defend yourself, once the guy is down he's no longer a threat. If you shoot him again defense becomes murder.

"Two to the chest, one to the head" is not "for overzealous faggots". It's also not for use against someone who's stopped moving. It's a "failure to stop" drill, and *every* police and tactical/defense school teaches it. The military, except for special ops forces and military police, does NOT teach it.

You ONLY do this if you've a) already shot at your target and b) they haven't stopped and/or are still coming. You *then* fire to into the chest - "center of mass" - two more times, and if the target is STILL coming at you, you shoot at the head to try to stop them.

Oh, and Blind? This is what the POLICE train to do, and it's what they teach concealed weapons permits to do. It is EXACTLY what you are supposed to do. You will get into no trouble by doing it properly.

I still don't see why you can't use the XM26 Lightweight Shotgun System. :hmm:

:p

It's a short-barrel shotgun (under 18") on a short-barrel (under 16") full-auto rifle. Highly, highly illegal for civilians to own, since none of those were made before 1986.

I also heard the Benellis are goos.

Benellis are excellent weapons. Sometimes a bit expensive.
 
I bought a Saiga-12 instead. You can get them for about $500, and you can get 5, 8 or 10 round detachable magazines for them. You can even get a 20 round drum for those times when all of Watts is rioting and they've come to visit *you*.

saiga12_pair.jpg

I have a Saiga .308 rifle and it's a very very nice weapon. I'd like a Saiga 12, but i've got some other items on my wish list above it.
 
Interesting read this thread.

Got to agree with the international language of the pump action shotgun. What few officers I know say the same thing about the sound it makes.



Very happy to be living next to Qu?bec city where home invasion is next to inexistent (so far) and the first murder of 2007 has yet to happen ( ! ).
 
Interesting read this thread.

Got to agree with the international language of the pump action shotgun. What few officers I know say the same thing about the sound it makes.



Very happy to be living next to Qu?bec city where home invasion is next to inexistent (so far) and the first murder of 2007 has yet to happen ( ! ).

Yeah, the sound of a pump racking is a universal warning. There are a few disadvantages, which I won't cover here. A close second to that is the sound of a Benelli shotgun bolt racking, tied with the LOUD mechanical klick KLACK KLACK as you swipe off the safety and rack the bolt on the oversized AK that is the Saiga shotgun.

As for the crime issue, it's a cultural problem. Firearms are everywhere in the US, both legal and illegal - at this point, banning firearms would *only* harm the law abiding as the criminals (usually gangs) already often have huge already-illegal arsenals (up to and including ANTI-TANK MISSILES) and they're not likely to surrender them ever. The only choice is for the law abiding to be able to defend themselves. I wouldn't advocate this solution for everyone or every situation, but it's what applies to the US at the current time. It has been empirically demonstrated in the US that the more guns in the hands of the law abiding in an area, the less violent crime occurs. Further restrictions on legal gun ownership or outright bans means more crime here. In fact, all of our "murder capitals" except New Orleans are gun-ban or heavy-gun-restriction areas. The lowest crime cities have the highest rates of legal gun ownership. And in the case of New Orleans, they tried an illegal gun seizure program after Katrina, failed, and all the law abiding left.

As for the root cause and permanent solution to the crime problem we have in the US? Well, that's another topic entirely.
 
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Lot of good advice in this thread but I have little experience with shotguns, most of my shooting experience and competition experience was with rifles and pistols, so I don't have much to add.

My dad was in the Army so we spent a lot of time on various army bases. My advice if there is a base nearby and if you can get access to it talk to someone at the range there. The base that I spent most of my time at when I was shooting a lot was Ft. Lee in Virginia and they had rifle, pistol and skeet/trap ranges with a great rangemaster. You could use the range for almost nothing and get lots of great advice.

They have tightened up the rules a lot for people on base now but if you have a friend who is in the military or retired military they can probably get you in as a guest.
 
I just went skeet shooting on Friday afternoon with a friend at a local range: www.elmfork.com

Rented a Beretta 391 Urika Optima 12 gauge. I really liked it. Been about four years since I did any shooting, and that was a mix of 20-gauge, 9mm, and a scoped rifle.
 
That is for military combat. If the cops find that you continued to put rounds into the guy after he was down then you will face charges (Unless you are in Texas or Colorado... probably). The idea is that you shoot to defend yourself, once the guy is down he's no longer a threat. If you shoot him again defense becomes murder.

I always thought it had more to do with how much of threat you're facing and if you feel you're still in danger.

I heard it was more of problem trying to shoot someone to cripple them, rather then kill them, because if you had time to consider not shooting to kill, then your life obviously wasn't in that much danger. If you fire at someone in a situation that you consider life-threatening, you better make sure the target is down. Just because you hit him in the torso and he fell, it doesn't mean he's defenseless and can't raise his weapon to shoot back. I hope I never end up in the situation, but I always read that you should aim for center of mass first, then depending on how the situation changes, aim for a lethal shot. Of course, it's all a double edged sword, isn't it.

Of the "Big Three" pump shotguns, I prefer the Mossberg line. The Mossberg differs from the Remington and the Winchester in that instead of having the safety control ahead of or behind the trigger guard, it is on top of the "tang" - right where you can see it and right where your thumb can easily actuate it and check its status by touch. I prefer this layout above those of the Rem or the Win.
The safety location was my biggest problem with the Mossberg. It wouldn't have been a problem if the gun was working properly, but the safety was engaging after every shot because it was loose. It sucked because even during a relatively relaxing skeetshooting day, it was a major problem. If we couldn't diagnose the problem within the few seconds that it took the clay to hit the ground, I can't imagine being in a life or death situation and having a faulty safety and not knowing what to do fast enough.

I'd rather have the traditional safety located near the trigger.
 
The safety location was my biggest problem with the Mossberg. It wouldn't have been a problem if the gun was working properly, but the safety was engaging after every shot because it was loose. It sucked because even during a relatively relaxing skeetshooting day, it was a major problem. If we couldn't diagnose the problem within the few seconds that it took the clay to hit the ground, I can't imagine being in a life or death situation and having a faulty safety and not knowing what to do fast enough.

I'd rather have the traditional safety located near the trigger.

Um, you were firing a BROKEN gun. The crossbolts are actually more prone to malfunction and user error than the top-tang ones are.

Try a fair evaluation with working guns instead.
 
Um, you were firing a BROKEN gun. The crossbolts are actually more prone to malfunction and user error than the top-tang ones are.

Try a fair evaluation with working guns instead.

I don't think it was broken. The safety worked fine. You slide your thumb up it and it would click and engage. No problem. But during shooting it would engage on it's own from the recoil. Nothing seemed to be broken, it still took some effort to engage the safety or disengage it. We couldn't figure out the problem.

Maybe it was the gun itself, but it wasn't that old. My cousin's Remington 870 Wingmaster was over 2 decades old and without a singe fault. And it wasn't babied or hidden away in a safe for years on end. My uncle and cousins go quail hunting every year and my cousin always uses that gun. And in the offseason he goes skeet shooting with it. I was hugely impressed with the Remington. That would be my choice, personally.
 
The Mossberg you shot was most emphatically broken. I've rapid fired 500s over and over and they've *never* done that.
 
It probably was. Something certainly wasn't right with it.

I'm willing to give Mossbergs another chance. But I would probably still go with a Remington 870 from my own experiance, as well as, the things my uncle/cousins have said.

Once I get my rock crawler project going good, I'll be in the market for a good shotgun. I really enjoy skeet shooting, never was much of a hunter. Until then though, I'll be sticking with my Ruger KP90 .45ACP for home defense. It's a decent handgun, very durable, and pretty accurate.

http://img221.imageshack.**/img221/8940/ruger015yd2.jpg
 
Are Sub-Machinguns illegal?
If not I would have one of these for home self defense:

mp5sdtable.jpg


A shotgun I think is probably a bit to long to use effectively in close combat.
And they don't hear you shooting them ;).
But maybe there are short versions or something?
But a good Handgun would do the job too, i think. No need for heavy artillery...
 
Are Sub-Machinguns illegal?
If not I would have one of these for home self defense:

mp5sdtable.jpg


A shotgun I think is probably a bit to long to use effectively in close combat.
And they don't hear you shooting them ;).
But maybe there are short versions or something?
But a good Handgun would do the job too, i think. No need for heavy artillery...

Submachine guns are effectively illegal in the US for most people to own. There are legal ways to get them, but they are expensive, rare, and you have to get lots of government permissions before you can buy one. And it has to have been made before 1986.

There are short versions of shotguns that are legal. The shotgun has been proven to be one of the most effective close combat weapons ever devised. It's amusing that you should question that, since when we Americans brought the pump-action shotgun (something unknown to the European armies) to Europe in World War I, it was greeted with that exact same derision. Once we demonstrated just how effective a shotgun was for clearing a trench at close quarters, you Germans were not well pleased. On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by Section II of the 1907 Hague Convention. Since you Germans had rejected similar complaints about the Maxim gun's use, the protest was examined for merit and summarily rejected.

So, which is it? Is the shotgun too big and unwieldy to be used in close combat? Or is it so effective that people complain about it?

I find it amusing that so many Europeans have no idea about what firearms really are, and what their actual capability is. For example, you recommended a submachine gun - which actually is more likely to shoot up everything but the target than a shotgun thanks to muzzle climb.

I think I need to repost a couple things from the last time we discussed this. You and other Europeans seem to not really understand what it is we're talking about.

From http://forums.finalgear.com/showthread.php?t=18885:

I don't really get that shotgun thing? It might be useful to blow zombies away from ten feet, but anything else? I guess I'd rather have a pistol or rifle, so I could do some target shooting. Which seems much more fun to me, since you actually need some training and skill?
But since gun laws here are very strict and there aren't many shooting ranges (and those existing are filled with rightist morons) I guess I'll keep it to a crossbow or something :)

Shotguns are useful from 0 feet to 200 yards, depending on load. For home defense, they have no equal because they are absolutely devastating with either buckshot or slugs at the typical home defense ranges. Despite what you see in movies, you do actually have to aim a shotgun, you can't just wave it in the general direction and fire it - at least not if you wish to hit the target. And if you wish to hit a moving target (shooting skeet, clays, hunting birds, hunting deer, hunting *bear*), you must also have skill and training.

To give you an example of how it works: With a 12 gauge shotgun, assuming it hasn't been fitted with certain muzzle devices to change the way the thing throws projectiles, the "cloud" of projectiles it throws expands approximately 3cm per meter of linear travel. That means that if you fire on a target from ten meters away, you have a 30cm area in which all your projectiles will land. If you are using the famed 00 Buckshot type rounds, that means that between 8 and 11 9mm lead projectiles will hit the target at around 1300 feet per second (or 396 meters per second). That's actually faster than some 9mm rounds. In terms of the damage it will do, that's like dumping between 8 and 11 9mm rounds into the target - except they're hitting all at one time and they greatly increase the chance of you getting at least one hit. If you're firing rifled slugs, you have about one quarter or less of that probability of error, and you're throwing a huge chunk of metal downrange - devastating out to 200 yards/150 meters.

Militarily, Europeans tend to favor submachineguns for the same sorts of things we use shotguns for - such as house clearing, close quarters combat, trench clearing, etc. The repeater shotgun is just not something that Europeans seem to get - seeing as how most European shotguns are *very* expensive two-shot weapons used only for sport or hunting.

The shotgun is probably the most versatile weapon one can own. Simply by changing the load, you can hunt everything from varmint (things like annoying squirrels and pigeons) to big game (elephant, grizzly); you can launch flares with it to signal others, you can use it in a less-lethal configuration (rubber bullets, or even beanbags!) if you just want someone to leave you alone, if you're in the military you can use the minigrenade rounds, you can fire tear gas from it, you can use it with noisemaker rounds to scare off flocks of birds, you can use it in combination with a special grapple to throw a line to someone for rescue, the list goes on and on. Here in America, we use the shotgun for all of the above and more.
 
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:D keep your blood pressure low mate.
I never shot any gun ever. So i do not have clue, I only watched american movies where they explained that short weapons are most effective in close quarters and more accurate then a shotgun. I dont want to shoot my furniture in to pieces while hunting a burglar :blink:.
Would you please skip the "you germans" stuff? It has nothing to do with me, is really unnecessary and I dont really care about 190X either. If you had better weaponlaws, maybe you wouldnt need a gun to defend yourself at all?
 
:D keep your blood pressure low mate.
I never shot any gun ever. So i do not have clue, I only watched american movies where they explained that short weapons are most effective in close quarters and more accurate then a shotgun. I dont want to shoot my furniture in to pieces while hunting a burglar :blink:.
Would you please skip the "you germans" stuff? It has nothing to do with me, is really unnecessary and I dont really care about 190X either. If you had better weaponlaws, maybe you wouldnt need a gun to defend yourself at all?

The reason I mentioned your nationality at all is that because every time one of these threads comes up, some German comes in and says something like this:

"HAR HAR HAR SHOTGUNS R NO GUD YOU SHOULD GET AN HECKLER UND KOCH SUBMACHINEGUN OR PISTOL JA!"

Frankly, I'm more than a little tired of it. You just happened to be the German of the day.

We have some really nasty weapons laws. The problem is that we have lazy prosecutors who refuse to enforce them in much of the country. Most guns (97%) used in crimes in the US are already illegally possessed, were illegally obtained, and may never have been imported legally in the first place.
 
^ Can you discuss anything without resorting to broad generalisations?

Frankly, I'm more than a little tired of your "me vs. them yupeans" attitude.
 
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