The Gun thread

[Spectre]

How much ammo do your regular highway patrol officers carry, though? I used to think two extra clips are sufficient, maybe even one (more in the car, but that doesn't count).

It depends on the jurisdiction and the individual officer's preferences. Typical loadout for a highway patrol officer is a topped-up sidearm (full mag plus one in the chamber ready to go), two extra magazines and a smaller backup in an ankle holster - plus the shotgun, automatic rifle and other reloads back in the cruiser. Exact number of rounds depends on the caliber and model of pistols the officer is carrying, but they're usually wandering around with just under 60 rounds total. (Average 18 in the sidearm, two more 17 rounders, plus seven in the backup, assuming a common 9mm/.380 pairing.) This is also what you will typically find urban police officers carrying.

When they expect trouble, or they're out on more rural patrols with backup a long way off, officers will usually add two more magazines just in case.

By comparison, I'm usually running around with 10+1 and either one or two more 13s, that's all.

 

[freefall]

Is it ever advised to not have a round chambered while carrying outside (talking about civilians, not law enforcement)?
Is it ever advised to have a firearm cocked and not locked (well, for the obvious exception of being in an openly hostile environment, but then the weapon should not be in one's holster I reckon)?

 

[deathrazor]

Since you intend concealed carry as primary function, I suggest a new Keltec PF9/P11 or a Kahr PM9. Both are inexpensive (well under $300 new at dealers), reliable and well made firearms with decent aftermarket support while being lightweight enough to carry comfortably - and not so light that shooting is unpleasant (though they do have significant recoil, an issue with all pistols in this class). This leaves much of the budget for ammo to gain proficiency, as well as adding optional extras like night sights or even laser sights (as I don't know what your visual acuity is).

I'll probably look into the Kel-Tec PF9 or P11, thanks!

 

[Blind_Io]

Is it ever advised to not have a round chambered while carrying outside (talking about civilians, not law enforcement)?
Is it ever advised to have a firearm cocked and not locked (well, for the obvious exception of being in an openly hostile environment, but then the weapon should not be in one's holster I reckon)?

Personally, when I carry my pistol is loaded, cocked and the safety is on. In one movement I can draw, snap the safety off and aim. If you don't carry loaded (meaning one in the chamber) then you have to draw, use your other hand to cycle the weapon and then aim. That extra step takes time and requires you to use both hands.

Now let's say someone does manage to get the jump on you, you can use your left hand to defend yourself or push the baddie away while drawing with your right hand and firing - all in one motion.

 

[Spectre]

Is it ever advised to not have a round chambered while carrying outside (talking about civilians, not law enforcement)?

Yes, though not with any significant firearm of relatively recent design. There were several firearms produced or designed around the turn of the last century where leaving a round in the chamber was inadvisable due to their propensity for accidental discharge. For example, early Luger owners who carried them used to carry an empty cartridge casing around and leave that in the chamber due to that design's propensity to discharge when dropped or jarred (and if the chamber was empty - with no expended cartridge inserted - sometimes the firing pin got stuck in the forward position, leading to the weapon going uncontrollably full-auto and great distress the next time you racked the toggle-top). Also, old revolvers (1800s) were known to discharge if dropped on their hammers, so it was common to only load five out of six chambers and leave the empty one under the hammer.

It is also advisable to leave your chamber empty if you're doing something that involves a high possibility of falling or your weapon getting snagged by a branch but where speed of deployment isn't so urgent, such as open-carrying a pistol to defend against snakes or other vermin in the field or forest while riding an ATV or horse.

Is it ever advised to have a firearm cocked and not locked (well, for the obvious exception of being in an openly hostile environment, but then the weapon should not be in one's holster I reckon)?

Cocked and locked generally only refers to the 1911, Browning High Power and related designs. Generally, other designs are carried cocked/half-cocked and 'unlocked' because they have no external hammer or safety levers (Glock, Springfield XD, some HKs, etc.), or cannot be locked (safety applied) while the hammer is cocked back. Cocked and locked is unique to the Browning single action auto/self-loading pistol designs and their relatives; most autoloading pistols are double action (pulling trigger cocks the weapon then fires the first round as it goes through its travel) these days with single action (must manually cock weapon first, the weapon will cock the hammer itself for subsequent shots) the minority. SA is preferred for speed and accuracy, but it requires a more training and care to use (because forgetting to cock your pistol then set the safety can be fatally embarrassing) and some departments/organizations have a problem with the 'threatening' appearance of a cocked-and-locked pistol so they won't permit its use.

 

[deathrazor]

I found a couple of sites with the Kel-Tec P11 for sale for around $250 or so, so I'm probably going to go for that once I get paid. Any recommended accessories aside from an extra magazine or two?

 

[Spectre]

You'll want night sights or (possibly) a laser, depending on your sighting options and your own visual acuity. Three or more magazines might also be a good idea (to have spares and such).

You will also need one or more holsters for various types of carry. Check out the Kel-Tec Owner's Group for more info and suggestions.

 

[freefall]

Cocked and locked generally only refers to the 1911, Browning High Power and related designs. Generally, other designs are carried cocked/half-cocked and 'unlocked' because they have no external hammer or safety levers (Glock, Springfield XD, some HKs, etc.), or cannot be locked (safety applied) while the hammer is cocked back. Cocked and locked is unique to the Browning single action auto/self-loading pistol designs and their relatives; most autoloading pistols are double action (pulling trigger cocks the weapon then fires the first round as it goes through its travel) these days with single action (must manually cock weapon first, the weapon will cock the hammer itself for subsequent shots) the minority. SA is preferred for speed and accuracy, but it requires a more training and care to use (because forgetting to cock your pistol then set the safety can be fatally embarrassing) and some departments/organizations have a problem with the 'threatening' appearance of a cocked-and-locked pistol so they won't permit its use.

Given my extremely limited experience with firearms, I have always mistaken the fire-mode selector on the Glocks for a safety lever (despite the fact that I knew of the mid-trigger safety feature). And I'm quite surprised to find out that there are pistols with no dedicated safety pin/lever at all.

And by "cocked" for DA I meant whatever state the firing pin/mechanism is left in after jacking the slide to send a round into the chamber.

Thanks for explaining in detail.

 

[Aircooled]

Given my extremely limited experience with firearms, I have always mistaken the fire-mode selector on the Glocks for a safety lever (despite the fact that I knew of the mid-trigger safety feature). And I'm quite surprised to find out that there are pistols with no dedicated safety pin/lever at all.

And by "cocked" for DA I meant whatever state the firing pin/mechanism is left in after jacking the slide to send a round into the chamber.

Thanks for explaining in detail.

What fire mode selector?



In other news I'm in love with the M&P. I want one in either 9mm or .40

 

[Spectre]

Given my extremely limited experience with firearms, I have always mistaken the fire-mode selector on the Glocks for a safety lever (despite the fact that I knew of the mid-trigger safety feature). And I'm quite surprised to find out that there are pistols with no dedicated safety pin/lever at all.

To paraphrase John Browning, the only safety one really needs is between one's ears. As long as the weapon has adequate internal drop safeties and such, it'll be fine without an external safety lever as long as your holster covers the trigger and you keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.

And by "cocked" for DA I meant whatever state the firing pin/mechanism is left in after jacking the slide to send a round into the chamber.

There's two general subtypes of DA self-loading pistols; DA/SA, where your first shot is fired double action and the weapon cocks itself for subsequent shots, and DAO - double action only. The latter is slowly becoming more prevalent for a number of reasons I don't have time to go into today.

On most DAO weapons, if they have a hammer, when the slide is cycled, the hammer simply follows the slide forward and like a revolver you use the trigger to cock and fire the weapon. On DA/SA weapons, the first shot is fired double action, and the weapon cocks the hammer for subsequent shots. This, however, usually changes the trigger pull travel and feel (the issues I'm not going to go into right now) and causes problems. In either case, most DA weapons cannot be safed with the weapon cocked and must be decocked (hammer lowered) to put the safety on.

What fire mode selector?

Glock 18s, which are exceedingly popular with police in Europe and other gun control regimes, are select-fire machine pistols.

They don't sell those to civilians here, as they're all post-86-ban models with literally only a few that were made right before the ban. Glock 18s and 18Cs are the only factory Glocks with this feature. There are some California-only models that have an external safety lever because of that state's stupid gun laws, but nobody else wants them.

In other news I'm in love with the M&P. I want one in either 9mm or .40

I dislike S&W for political reasons, but supposedly the M&P is a nice pistol.

 

[freefall]

There's two general subtypes of DA self-loading pistols; DA/SA, where your first shot is fired double action and the weapon cocks itself for subsequent shots, and DAO - double action only. The latter is slowly becoming more prevalent for a number of reasons I don't have time to go into today.

Well, I guess one of the reasons being uniform operation cycle, and thus uniform trigger resistance (meaning first/subsequent releases, not across the travel). The other one probably being fewer parts in the firing mechanism and greater safety level due to the firearm never being fully cocked until the trigger is pulled.

On DA/SA weapons, the first shot is fired double action, and the weapon cocks the hammer for subsequent shots. This, however, usually changes the trigger pull travel and feel (the issues I'm not going to go into right now)

I think I know what you mean, I still have some experience to appreciate shorter and smooth trigger travel and slight resistance buildup towards the firing point (well at least that's what I generally prefer). DA should make the feeling less smooth and more "mechanical" in theory

 

[Blind_Io]

I dislike S&W for political reasons, but supposedly the M&P is a nice pistol.

Say what?

Please do tell.

 

[Spectre]

Say what?

Please do tell.

You don't know about the S&W Sellout?

The company has since been sold, but they've never repudiated the contract, which is still enforceable if the government decides to call them on it.

 

[Aircooled]

Glock 18s, which are exceedingly popular with police in Europe and other gun control regimes, are select-fire machine pistols.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/5/55/Glock18c_01-1-.jpg/800px-Glock18c_01-1-.jpg/img]

They don't sell those to civilians here, as they're all post-86-ban models with literally only a few that were made right before the ban. Glock 18s and 18Cs are the only factory Glocks with this feature. There are some California-only models that have an external safety lever because of that state's stupid gun laws, but nobody else wants them.

[/QUOTE]


I know about 18c's and NFA regulations, I was curious what he meant by lever. The only one I could think of was the slide lock and take down levers. But apparently California and their ridiculous regulations is responsible for the lever.

 

[Spectre]

I'm pretty sure he was thinking about the 18/18C, which is quite commonly seen in European police holsters. This is what the factory 'Glock with extra safety' looks like.

 

[Aircooled]

I'm trying to figure out when a weapon like that would be valuable as a side arm.

 

[Spectre]

I'm trying to figure out when a weapon like that would be valuable as a side arm.

There was also this special one-off run of Glock 17s that was made for the Tazmanian Police that had a really crummy 1911-esque safety added to it.

They were the only organization who ever bought them and nobody else has ever expressed interest.

Not something I'd want - apparently the Tazmanian government figured their cops were too stupid to be trained to keep their finger out of the trigger guard.

 

[Aircooled]

The best safety is the one kept between the ears. Keep the trigger clear and you'll have no problems.

 

[Blind_Io]

I would just be worried about my holster catching on the trigger, with no secondary safety that makes me uneasy. That's why I like my 1911, I have not one but two additional safeties.

 

[freefall]

I was talking about the switch located on the frame above the centre of the trigger guard, in the recessed spot.

What is that another switch/release lever located at the top of the handle (directly to the left of the safety selector on the Glock 17 that Spectre posted)? Is it used to detach the slide/barrel?

Glock 18s, which are exceedingly popular with police in Europe and other gun control regimes

Oh, and, forgot to ask: what's wrong with that and why the "gun control regimes" remark? I thought that Glock is a good all-round handgun used in all sorts of countries for different purposes. They probably use SIGs in Switzerland and Germany, but every country is clearly biased towards its domestic designs, if they are at least competitive, not necessarily the best.