2008 Belgian Formula 1 Grand Prix

I have a quick question...where are you all observing the race? I slept through it, believing that other means of viewing were possible, and my usually source (motorworld.net) has had a few unfortunate incidents.

Can anyone please refer me to where I can acquire a torrent/working copy of the race?

Thanks.
 
Can anyone please refer me to where I can acquire a torrent/working copy of the race?

Mininova. I just picked one up - just for one screengrab...

I have nothing further to add about the Lewis/Kimi incident; everyone else has already said it multiple times.

What I will say, though, is: watch out, Williams, or you'll be displaying 16 and 17 on your cars next season, just like last year. I'm actually tempted to go to Ladbroke's and see what odds they'll give me for Toro Rosso beating them to seventh. Though I reckon the odds won't be great, as if the race had been stopped two laps from the end, with Bourdais & Vettel 5th and 6th, they'd already be ahead.

As for the unwelcome sight of 18 and 19 on the Hondas next year...
 
I have a quick question...where are you all observing the race? I slept through it, believing that other means of viewing were possible, and my usually source (motorworld.net) has had a few unfortunate incidents.

Can anyone please refer me to where I can acquire a torrent/working copy of the race?

Thanks.

Hamilton pass starts at 1:50.

[YOUTUBE]0YTG7hnjg0w[/YOUTUBE]
 
McLaren quite are rightly appealing the decision.

Whoever was responsible for that penalty is very clearly a sore Ferrari fan, and the stewards themselves are just a collection of random idiots put into positions of undeserving power who have simply no idea on how to adjudicate a grand prix. Hamilton's move was legit, he completely let Raikkonen back past and then attacked again. There was no advantage, and in any case he had to cut the chicane to avoid the Ferrari anyway. Stupid and unfair. What about Raikkonen blasting around on the run-off tarmac?

Insane closing laps though. It's very unfortunate for Raikkonen that such a great drive went unrewarded. I dont agree in that he was the deserving winner though because he obviously couldn't keep it on the road when it mattered whereas Hamilton could - just. Besides, had Hamilton not dropped it at La Source in the opening stages there's a good argument to suggest he would've had it won anyway. Slings and arrows.
 
Insane closing laps though. It's very unfortunate for Raikkonen that such a great drive went unrewarded. I dont agree in that he was the deserving winner though because he obviously couldn't keep it on the road when it mattered whereas Hamilton could - just. Besides, had Hamilton not dropped it at La Source in the opening stages there's a good argument to suggest he would've had it won anyway. Slings and arrows.

x2. I'm a Ferrari fanboy but unfortunately Raikkonen lost it and despite having a great race, you can't deserve a win unless you complete it. I don't see why there was a need for the penalty. Lewis let Kimi regain the lead and Kimi went wide and Lewis took advantage of it and then rest was both of them doing a little WRC.

Edit: I'm really happy for Massa but it looks like it's season over for Kimi.
 
I remember now what I was going to comment on before the inevitable bombshell dropped...

Last, but not least: Spa. Why they even consider not racing on this track is just beyond me. Honestly, this race more than makes up for the sleepfest we had a couple of weeks ago, it feels like F1 was on a 5 week break and this is the first race we got to watch after the summer holidays. Here's hoping Spa is able to stay on the calendar unchanged, forever :)
They'll consider not racing on it because it's an interesting, old-school track in Europe. Usually I'd say "in a country with masses of racing history and heritage" but something tells me Belgium isn't really on a par with Italy, Britain, France, etc. And neither Bertrand Gachot nor Eric van de Poele is standing behind me with a spiked club forcing me to write that it is. Belgium just happens to have a circuit which has been fantastic in both its configurations.

Soon, though, Spa's place on the calendar will be sold off to the latest Johnny-come-lately country with a population largely ignorant of or indifferent to F1 until the day it's announced that said country is getting its own Grand Prix. Expect the standard Hermann Tilke C-shaped tight-and-technical go-kart track with a long straight ending in a hairpin.

Before we open that can of works any further, though, Hermann Tilke does have good days, such as the one where he came up with Istanbul Park. It's just that he has rather more off-days - Bahrain, Hockenheim, Fuji... I had a nightmare last night in which he butchered Spa and turned Eau Rouge, Pouhon and Stavelot into a series of tight corners and small straights. As if what they did to Eau Rouge in 1994 after that all-too-predictable knee-jerk reaction wasn't enough...

I'm going to let Mike Doodson from grandprix.com have the final word.
"If Bernie ever achieves his ambition of selling all the FIA's world championship Grands Prix to publicity-seeking Asian despots and oil-rich sheikhs in the desert, the European circuit which I will miss the most is Spa-Francorchamps."

Have I had a severe episode of brain fade here, or is that "Jack" out of place? Jack Brabham is very definitely not dead, whereas all the others with their names on wreaths are. Or is there another Jack I've forgotten about?
 
I'm hoping that the appeal goes well, but we know the FIA will set the appeal very late in the season (maybe after the season) and it properly won't even matter by then! I'm sure McLaren can win in Monza
 
Stunned. Utterly stunned is how I feel after this race. That was hands-down the most exciting couple of laps I've ever seen in any race. It could have been a great tool to promote F1 and show that great races can still happen. But then the officials go and completely and utterly fuck it all up and give even more ammunition to the F1 bashers.

If the decision of the stewards stands and Max Mosely does nothing about it then he should be removed from office NOW. Last year he slapped McLaren with that huge penalty because they supposedly hurt the image of F1. This year he himself hurt that image far more than any team scandal ever could yet in his infinite care of the support he refused to step down. If he allows the modified results of this race to stand than Formula one will have no credibility left.

EDIT: I just noticed something, whatever happened to that darker red Ferrari were using on their cars earlier this year? Also Ferrari stopped using the anvil engine cover for this race and none of their engines exploded. Maybe what I said in the other thread was right afterall!
 
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Didn't Kimi take an unfair advantage at the start of the second lap by running into the run-off area when Hamilton left him nowhere else to go by spinning in front of him?

The run-off area is also considered an "escape road" off the track so Kimi got the slingshot up the hill instead of ending up in a gravel trap that is common on a lot of run-offs. Kimi repeated the feat at the end but on a different part of the track.

It's called racing......, i miss the old wheel banging days.
 
Is it me or does the FIA allow Ferrari to get away with cold blooded murder while coming down hard on McLaren for as much as sneezing the wrong way?
 
Ferrari:
Well needless to say I am distraught. I was dreading rain, just seems nothing can go Kimi's way this year. Drove an error free race right up to the penultimate lap when mother nature decided to wreak havoc. He has driven no differently this weekend of course to the rest of the year so any talk of a Kimi "resurgence" is rubbish. He just managed to get track position for once so therefore could show his true speed, he has been easily the fastest race driver this year, just unable to get it together in qualifying. He had a great start for once and after Lewis made a little mistake the race was his. He was lucky to make it as far as he did, for whatever reason this years Ferrari is nigh on undriveable in wet conditions, doesn't bode well for Fuji. Kimi's season is now over however I hope he doesn't support Massa, the bigger repercussions are the manafacturers title. Ferrari could have really could have made it very difficult, alas not. Massa was very impressive in quali considering his fuel load! However his race set up means he lost too much time in sector 2, not enough downforce. Drove a steady if unspectacular race, still not great in mixed conditions like the start of the race where Lewis and Kimi gapped him easily. A final interesting statistic was Kimi's speed through Pouhon (turn 10). He was consistently 6 or 7km/h faster than anyone else which is just staggering.

McLaren:
Lewis is a fabulous driver in mixed conditions, however I was furious at his tactics on the third last lap. While he let Kimi through back to the lead, cutting the chicane meant he got a far better run up the straight so the pass into La Source was inevitable. I do hope the penalty is overturned though, he probably did deserve to win as he stuck to Kimi's bumper the whole race then was better at the end when it counted, however his method to me leaves a lot to be desired. That said I laughed until tears came when I read he had been stripped of the win, however unjust it may be. Heikki made a crap start, ruined Webbers race then karma repaid him by making his car die. Not a very good performance.

BMW:
I think its about time QuickNick was renamed SlickNick. He seems to squeeze good results from some very very unlikely scenarios. Nick has changed from moving up the grid during races to moving down. While he seemed to drive better than Kubica this weekend 3rd was a gift. I doubt this drive alone will convince Mario. Kubica drove fairly well but lacked pace, couldn't hold off Kovi and spend most of the afternoon chasing Toro Rosso's which can't have brought a smile to his face.

Renault:
Another reminder if one was needed of just how good Alonso is. Spa is very much about horsepower, something the Renault lacks, you only had to watch Heikki pass Piquet for a graphic illustration of the disparity. Yet there he was in 4th place for most of the race, a great shame he couldn't grab a podium for the first time this season as god knows he deserved it. Not sure if something broke on Piquet's car as it did snap very suddenly but the result is the same, out of the race. Gained vital ground on Toyota and I hope they grab it as Alonso has just been mega this year.

Toyota:
Lacked pace all weekend but my god Truilli made the best start in god knows how many years, only to throw it away on the last chicane of course. Didn't see much of them during the race, probably because they weren't doing much. Will be very close between them and Renault at the end of the year.

Toro Rosso:
The dark horses of F1 now. They have a very fast package in the hands of now two very quick drivers. Bourdais seems to be getting the hang of driving an F1 car now, he was very impressive this weekend and deserved better than getting passed on the last corner. His moment of glory in Q1 when he topped the time sheets was very amusing as Martin and James desperately scanned the midfield looking for his time. Vettel was again superb. Was very lucky to get away with shunting Truilli into the first corner though. Could be a serious threat to 6th in the championship. Williams are nowhere, Red Bull aren't exactly troubling the scorers either and a couple more double points finishes could put the humble B team in the hunt.

Red Bull:
Again Webber was very impressive before his famous luck strikes again. Interesting that at the greatest challenge to drivers on the calendar the cream rises to the crop with Alonso, Webber, Vettel etc. all performing well. Glock's penalty means he scores a point which he deserved after a bit of a dry spell. DC seemed to be having fun racing Ruebens, at least he didn't run into anyone for a change. I think given their pace their challenge for 4th in the championship is over.

Williams:
Nakajima was a slow driver in a slow car this weekend. Interesting that he was losing all his time in Sector 2 where commitment is everything. Perhaps excuseable considering he had never driven an F1 car around there before but I don't think that excuse will wash too well with Frank. Williams have wisely promised him nothing for next year. Rosberg is hardly covering himself in glory either, his big moment of the race was spinning out at precisely the point that Lewis and Kimi also wanted to have a crash. Now THAT would have caused some consternation had they both hit him.

Honda:
Terrible weekend, just when you think they can't get any worse. Not only are they glacially slow they are unreliable. The RA108 surely has to be one of the worst F1 cars given the budget ever created, up there with some of Ferrari's monstrosity's. At least they were usually near the front when they exploded though. This 2009 car better be an absolute stunner.

Force India:
Yes they still brought up the rear, although Kazuki fought them hard for it, but Martin made a good point in quali. They were about 2 seconds a lap slower than the works teams over about 7km of very fast race track. Ok the engines in the back help but Mansell used to outqualify his teammate Patrese by 2 seconds, let alone the difference between 1st and last. Crazy how tight the fields are now. Perhaps if Mallaya sold that ocean liner he calls a boat they would be even closer.

Spa:
What a track. Spa never has a dull race but even if it did it wouldn't matter as it is one of the few (only?) circuits that simply watching an F1 car in action is a joy. While yes they emasculated Eau Rouge a bit it is still amazing and I'm sure the drivers don't get tired of getting funny tummys as they hit -3G at the bottom, surely only the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca offers a similar feeling. Just the views around the track are amazing. You can only usually see one or two corners at an F1 venue anyway so why not put the venue in a bloody great forest!! The highlight of the year.
 
I really think that at times like this, people should stop being Ferrari or McLaren fans, and should accept they are Formula 1 fans above all. And situations like this ruin the sport. Even if it was Massa being stripped of his win, I would be furious.
 
Have I had a severe episode of brain fade here, or is that "Jack" out of place? Jack Brabham is very definitely not dead, whereas all the others with their names on wreaths are. Or is there another Jack I've forgotten about?

No, it was a mistake by Jim Bamber (the cartoonist) in this one, and he did accidentally mean Jack Brabham. In the description of the cartoon, on his webpage, he offers his apologies.


EDIT: Best possible title for the race report, courtesy of Grandprix.com:

http://www.grandprix.com/race/r798racereport.html

Belgian GP - Sunday - Race Report
F1 shoots itself in the foot

Lewis Hamilton scored a wonderful win over Ferrari at Spa on Sunday, snatching victory from Kimi Raikkonen in the dying moments of the race, as rain began to fall on the Belgian circuit. It was a terrific race, with plenty of spectacular action. There was no shortage of scrambling in the final few minutes with a number of drivers stretching the rules as they did everything they could to make it to the flag. But when it came to handing out punishments, the stewards concentrated on Hamilton. In Valencia a fortnight ago Felipe Massa was investigated for "unsafe release" from his Ferrari pit. His penalty normally would have been a 10s stop and go penalty, which would have denied him victory. Instead Felipe was fined. At Spa a McLaren was in the firing line and the decision was very different. A 25secs penalty dropped Hamilton from first to third.

"I would be surprised if there was a penalty," Hamilton said before the stewards' decision. "This is motor racing and if there is a penalty something is wrong. It was fair and square, it would be absolutely wrong if that happens, but we know what they're like."

Everyone in Formula 1 knew exactly what Hamilton meant - and millions of spectators across the world as well. Whether the FIA likes it or not there is a widely-held belief that Ferrari is always favoured by the decision-makers, particularly if McLaren is involved. The FIA argues that this is not the case, but who believes it these days? There have been too many decisions like this. The actual decision is really irrelevant. Hopefully Hamilton will direct his frustrations and win the World Championship without needing the points he lost at Spa. The key question is whether the FIA can find a way to restore some faith in the sport. People are tired of such rubbish, particularly as the credibility of the FIA is at an all-time low after the Mosley Scandal.

We're not saying that there is a giant conspiracy against McLaren, but all too often it looks that way. It happens time and time again. And when the boot is on the other foot the decisions seem to be different. In F1 circles it is called "the red car rule". People just do not believe it any longer. And that is scary because if they stop believing in the sport, then we are lost. It is really not clear what Hamilton was supposed to do after the incident. He ran across the chicane and then carefully backed off and allowed Raikkonen to repass him. At the next corner Hamilton was able to scramble ahead and, after another gripping skirmish at Pouhon that lap, he went on to win as Raikkonen blew his chances of victory by first spinning and then crashing out of the race in the damp conditions.

Hamilton made no such mistakes and took what was an impressive victory.

In those wild laps Raikkonen did a number of things that might also have been punished. He appeared to use the high-friction run-off areas at Pouhon to gain advantage and close right up to Hamilton. He then clearly overtook Hamilton at a point where there was a waved yellow flag. He did not mean to do it, he was avoiding a collision with Nico Rosberg, who was rejoining the race after a spin, but it is also clear that Hamilton was doing everything he could do to avoid gaining an advantage from what he had done.

"We look at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards," McLaren said in a statement. "It showed that having lifted Lewis was 6kmh slower than Kimi as they crossed the start finish line. Having passed the lead back to Kimi, Lewis repositioned his car, moving across and behind Kimi to the right-hand line and then outbraked him into the hairpin. Based on this data, we have no option other than to register our intention to appeal. We are a racing team and will now focus on Monza, with a view to extending our lead in the Drivers' World Championship."

It is so sad that the day had to end as it did for it had been a super race. Hamilton led from the start but then had a quick spin at the start of the second lap that allowed Raikkonen to go ahead. Kimi had made no friends by forcing his way past team-mate Felipe Massa on the first lap, deliberately running wide on to the run-off area at La Source to gain an advantage on the run own the hill to Eau Rouge. Massa said he had been too cautious.

"It was pretty close," Massa said. "Kimi was so quick he was going to pass me easy, yet he started to close the line and we nearly touched wheel to wheel. I thought that was strange."

That looked like a falling out. Kimi has seemed asleep for much of this season but at Spa he seemed suddenly awake and ruthless. Or desperate. In any case he was ahead and there he stayed as Hamilton tried to hold on. Hamilton was the first to pit for fuel, on lap 11. Raikkonen was in a lap later and by the time the stops were completed Kimi had increased his advantage as Lewis had been caught in traffic. The plan had been to do a short stint to try to make up time and take the lead at the second stops, but it did not work. It looked as though all was lost, but in the closing laps Lewis found he could close on Raikkonen. With eight laps left Kimi was two seconds ahead and seemed to be comfortable but then spots of rain appeared at the back of the track and suddenly the story changed.

"I was just pushing, pushing, pushing, trying to close the gap," said Hamilton. "I would pull back a tenth at a time, and then he'd pull away. I was hoping that he'd catch traffic, and sometimes he got it on the straight and got a tow, and sometimes I'd get it in a corner. It was mix and match. Going through Eau Rouge I could see clouds and I was praying, 'Please, rain, rain, rain!' I knew how to deal with it. Then I saw Kimi begin to back off."

The battle got wilder as the conditions grew worse and as they went into the chicane at the end of lap 42 they were side-by-side.

"I was in a good position to dive inside him and he covered his spot, which was fair," Hamilton said. "He braked early, so I went round outside and left him enough room. He accelerated, or picked up more pace in the corner, and drove me as wide as he possibly could. I had no room left. I thought, 'If I stay where I am I can try to go over the green astroturf bit and hit him, or I go left.' The latter was the option I had to do, so I did it."

Hamilton was thus ahead. He knew that he had to give the place back and he did. The team told him as well. There was no attempt to avoid the rules.

"I was still accelerating, but not at full throttle," he said. "He was in my blind spot so I waited until I saw him come by and then got on it and back into his slipstream."

They headed into La Source with Kimi jinking about trying to keep Lewis behind but Hamilton nailed him and went down the inside. At the apex of the corner Kimi nudged him up the back, obviously frustrated at having blown it after a good afternoon of racing.

Out on the track conditions were worse and at Pouhon Raikkonen went way wide on to the high friction tarmac that is designed to slow the cars. It gave him extra grip and he came back at Lewis as they went into the next right hander. The problem was that Nico Rosberg had spun and was getting back on the track as the two leaders arrived. Yellow flags were being waved. Hamilton had to go left on to the grass to avoid the Williams. Kimi nearly ran into the back of it, but managed to scrambled through.

Raikkonen had overtaken both cars under a yellow flag. He did not mean to. It just happened. Did anyone question that? It was all irrelevant as almost immediately Raikkonen spun and Lewis was ahead again.

"It was so much fun," said Hamilton. "My heart was racing more than it ever has before!"

Raikkonen tried to give chase but then spun again and this time piled the Ferrari into the wall. His comeback was over. The Italian media started to sharpen their knives again. He had blown it.

Hamilton still had to get his car home but with Massa looking for points there was no challenge and Lewis backed right off. Behind him there was all kinds of excitement as the chasers scrambled for points. Heidfeld, Glock, Rosberg, Nakajima, Coulthard and Fisichella all dived into the pits for intermediate tyres. Alonso went too. As Spa is a long track the ploy worked and Heidfeld pulled off an amazing lap as he went past Vettel, Kubica and finally Bourdais to grab third place. Bourdais lost his momentum and was passed by Vettel and Kubica. Alonso's gamble also paid off, hustling the car around to finish fourth.

Heidfeld has had a tough time of late and this was a reward for him.

"I was convinced it would be heavier on the next lap and decided to change to wet weather tyres. The team asked me if I meant what I said. When I left the pit lane after the stop I asked on the radio how many laps to go, and my engineer said this one and another one. It was a Hero or Zero decision."

Although Bourdais lost out it was still a good day for his team with both he and Vettel bringing home points.

"On the last lap it was a lottery with the car getting away from you with every turn of the wheel," Bourdais said. "It's a horrible situation, as everything had been under control up until then. But I am not in a situation where I can risk everything and at the end of the race I didn't even know where I finished. It was so close to being a great result I felt I could almost touch it and so it was a very frustrating way to finish."

Glock's gamble also seemed to pay off but later he was docked 25s for ignoring waved yellows, so he dropped from eighth to ninth behind Mark Webber, who thus took a point for Red Bull.

Others had suffered earlier. Jarno Trulli made an astonishing start, only to get hit heavily from behind by Bourdais at La Source. The Toyota handled terribly for the rest of the day and Jarno dropped away. Bourdais was lucky. Heikki Kovalainen made an awful start and bumped into Nick Heidfeld. Later Trulli spun in the chicane at the end of the lap, while a recovering Kovalainen pushed Mark Webber into a spin there as they battled. Later he was judged at fault and got a drive-through penalty.

It was an entertaining race which lit up like a firework at the end. Sadly the stewards threw a bucket of cold water over the whole event.

We can only hope that the FIA Court of Appeal will be a little more reasonable.

But few believe that will happen.




My note: Judging by what McLaren said, I expect that if Hamilton had stayed behind Kimi through La Source and had only had a stab at overtaking him down the hill or into Les Combes (and, judging by the conditions, he would have had a shot), we wouldn't have had to deal with all this shit hitting the fan.
 
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So I grabbed the race off a site, and the release notes indicate that the winning driver is docked the position. But it warned that you shouldn't read the full notes if you didn't want a spoiler. Okay, so I watch the race. Gets down to lap 3 or 4 when Lewis has a bit of trouble in the Bus Stop. Figured okay, what happened that Kimi gets docked first place? Whip out my phone, pull up autosport.com.....something about Lewis loses the first. WTF? Kimi's in the lead!
/me looks at the TV
Hey look! It's the Bus Stop and Lewis is awfully close. *Lewis cuts the chicane* Whoa. This is intriguing all of a sudden!!

@Lewis - Learn to take a corner
@Stewards - Learn to not be dicks
@Kimi - Learn to loose and not hit the wall :no:

In all seriousness, Kimi coming in hot when Lewis and that BMW were all jumbled up there at the end, and managing to miss them both was pretty damn impressive.

Hope Lewis gets his points...
 
I really think that at times like this, people should stop being Ferrari or McLaren fans, and should accept they are Formula 1 fans above all. And situations like this ruin the sport. Even if it was Massa being stripped of his win, I would be furious.

Exactly - it's not about who was shafted, it's about how unbelievably ridiculous the decision is.

EDIT: Best possible title for the race report, courtesy of Grandprix.com:

http://www.grandprix.com/race/r798racereport.html

My note: Judging by what McLaren said, I expect that if Hamilton had stayed behind Kimi through La Source and had only had a stab at overtaking him down the hill or into Les Combes (and, judging by the conditions, he would have had a shot), we wouldn't have had to deal with all this shit hitting the fan.

That's a great report - but I can't agree with your take on things. Lewis did the right thing and let Kimi by, after that point his instincts as a racer took over, as they should. He saw a chance to get by at La Source and took it - we need more driving like that in F1.
 
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I've read through quite a few websites this afternoon and 99.9% of all comments agree the decision is wrong so if the FIA want to retain ANY sort of credibility they need to overturn it. I don't know much (well, anything) about African motorsport but i remain unconvinced how a steward from Kenya (or similar) can know anything about the sport he has to precide over, in this case F1 precicely!

The question then becomes an arbitory one about what is "advantage" and what is not. Kimi was swerving one way and the other over the start line and seemed to brake earlier than normal on a non-defensive line so i don't see what Hamilton was supposed to do but go through the open door.
 
Great race, too bad about Lewis he deserved to win that. I don't agree with the stewards decision, but I like the close fight for the championship now.
 
I don't know much (well, anything) about African motorsport but i remain unconvinced how a steward from Kenya (or similar) can know anything about the sport he has to precide over, in this case F1 precicely!

Careful there about lynching entire nations over motoring heritage. You'd be surprised how much people know these days, even in Kenya.

In other news, I stopped caring about the decisions of Formula 1's cutting-edge idiots long before McLaren were stripped of their constructor's points. The FIA has consistently demonstrated over the past two (or more) decades that it can't handle itself, and this is just another example of such incompetence.

It's still fun to watch sometimes, as was the case with Spa-Francorchamps, but involving yourself any more than that is asking to be hurt.
 
As everyone else has said, the decision by the stewards to penalise Hamilton is fucking ridiculous.

Enough Said.
 
I don't know much (well, anything) about African motorsport but i remain unconvinced how a steward from Kenya (or similar) can know anything about the sport he has to precide over, in this case F1 precicely!

What a stupid thing to say. His country doesn't have a strong motorsport history is no reason to make him a bad steward.
 
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