2008 Japanese Formula 1 Grand Prix

vikiradTG2007 said:
It's going to be a matter of self-control in these final two races. And whoever, of the three involved, has the most of it, will win the World Championship.
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+1

QFT!
 
vikiradTG2007 said:
And the final joker might be the engine situation. Kubica and both the Ferraris will have new engines in Brazil, while Hamilton will have to use the same engine as in China. And considering the engine failure on Kovalainen's car, it might be a bit worrying.
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Do remember that Lewis still hasn't used his "get out of jail free" engine change yet, so that may not be the case. As long as the engine lasts through the Chinese Grand Prix, I would imagine that they would use that and switch it out for the Brazilian one.

As for this argument about Lewis being a prick, I'm not sure that he is or not. There are definitely cases where he acts as such, but others where he doesn't. One thing I do think though, is that his dad Anthony annoys me more then Lewis himself does. If you ask me, that dude needs to take a step back and let Lewis get on with things rather then being hovering over him and protecting him all the time. I know he is acting as Lewis's manager, and I honestly think that is a bad thing, and that he would grow from having someone outside the family step into that role. Massa is the only other person who's father comes to races frequently, and that is only to perhaps half of the them. Just a thought I had after seeing Anthony Hamilton "kiss" his boy off before heading out for the warmup lap. I love my dad, but I would never want him to be fully in charge of my life like a personal manager is.

JH
 
Electric-Mayhem said:
Do remember that Lewis still hasn't used his "get out of jail free" engine change yet, so that may not be the case. As long as the engine lasts through the Chinese Grand Prix, I would imagine that they would use that and switch it out for the Brazilian one.
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I think Autosport mentioned something in the terms of "the joker engine change cannot be used before the last race", so this might leave Macca in a bit of a "situation".

And I agree with you wholeheartedly about Anthony Hamilton. He needs to keep a much lower profile, otherwise... As far as I've seen him, he seems to be quite a lot more of a prick than his son.
 
F1.com has just put up a video with ALL the onboard footage:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

How fucking obvious is it that Lewis just made a misjudgement, and Massa rammed right into Lewis knowing he couldn't have passed. And then he goes and does the same to bourdais!
 
THE REAL STIG said:
F1.com has just put up a video with ALL the onboard footage:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

How fucking obvious is it that Lewis just made a misjudgement, and Massa rammed right into Lewis knowing he couldn't have passed. And then he goes and does the same to bourdais!
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First of all, I have to say that it's an absolute and very pleasant first by Formula1.com to post such videos.

Secondly, I have to say that the first two penalties were justified:

- Hamilton completely misjudged his braking for the first corner, and braked so hard that he locked up his tires. The ones that were to his left had to go straight on, in order to avoid the McLaren which could only go in a straight line, since the front wheels had locked up. If he had been mid-pack or, actually, anywhere lower than 5th place, he would have taken out the people ahead of him, much like Mauricio Gugelmin misjudged his braking into the first corner, at Paul Ricard, in 1989, and crashed into the back of Thierry Boutsen's Williams and Nigel Mansell's Ferrari. The race had to be stopped at that time.
Racing drivers always say "A rolling tire always stops better than a locked one". And it's true, since static friction is higher than rubbing friction, and a rolling tire's surface is actually static on contact with the tarmac.

- Massa's manoeuvre on Hamilton was over-optimistic, after all, he braked very very late in order to keep him behind, and he overshot the corner. Trying to get back on track, he saw Hamilton taking the normal line (Lewis had sold Massa a dummy at this phase), and he basically spun him out. He actually put two wheels on the grass in the attempt to get back past Hamilton, and he was fairly conclusively behind. It was always going to be Hamilton's corner, and Massa didn't accept that. It's a bit like the Senna-Schlesser incident at Monza, in 1988, with 2 laps to go, which broke the perfect season that McLaren had had up to that point, in the sense that the car in front took the line into the corner and the car behind T-boned it into a spin, only back then, the McLaren parked itself on the kerb with a cocked-up wheel, whereas this time it continued.

However, Bourdais' penalty was useless. I would have to call that as a racing incident, two cars side-by-side into a corner and one of them basically hits the throttle too hard and spins out. It would be something like the second start at Spa in 1998: Hakkinen got squeezed by Damon Hill, who took the lead, and he ended up side-by-side with Schumacher. They exited La Source side-by-side. Hakkinen, a bit over-eager to get on terms with his championship rival, hit the throttle too hard and spun. (He was then collected by Herbert's Sauber, but that's another story)


So that's two correct decisions out of three for the stewards this time. Not bad, considering that they made 0 out of 1 in some races.
 
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Nocturnal said:
Do I need to bring back the Ferrari International Assistance quotes again? :D
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Here's another example.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4306491,00.html

'Stewards contradicted Whiting's advice over Seb'
Monday 13th October 2008


It has emerged that in penalising Sebastien Bourdais for the collision with Felipe Massa that occurred as the Toro Rosso driver left the pits during the Japanese GP, the stewards directly contradicted the advice given to the drivers by Race Director Charlie Whiting.


The retrospective 25-second punishment meted out against the Frenchman cuased outrage, especially as it had been thought that the post-race investigation would focus on Massa's role in the accident. Instead, the stewards opted to punish Bourdais, thereby promoting the Ferrari driver to seventh place and further reducing his deficit to Lewis Hamilton in the World Championship.


Replays of the incident show Bourdais tucked in to the right-hand side of the track as he left the pits. With his wheels on the edge of the track, Bourdais was then struck by Massa's Ferrari as the Brazilian sought to overtake.


Branding the decision to punish Bourdais as 'ridiculous', ITV's James Allen revealed in his post-race commentary that 'the team managers I spoke to after the race all said that FIA race director Charlie Whiting had briefed them in Singapore and again in Fuji that the car exiting the pits has right of way.'


If so, it would be the second occasion in four races that the stewards have ignored the advice given to the teams by Whiting after the Race Director assured McLaren that Lewis Hamilton's move past Kimi Raikkonen in Belgium was "ok". As with Bourdais, the stewards then imposed a retrospective drive-through penalty.


'If the teams cannot believe the race director, what hope have the rest of us and the wider public got?' asks Allen. 'The FIA styles itself as the referee in this sport, but surely it cannot afford to keep sending out such mixed messages.'


The stewards have yet to offer any sort of explanation for their ruling, or why it was issued after the race. The collision occurred on lap 51, with another 16 still to run. As Allen notes, that meant they had 20 minutes to judge the incident and announce their findings before the end of the race, something which should have been achievable given it took them just 15 laps to rule on both of the penalties issued against Hamilton and Massa at the start of the race.
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vikiradTG2007 said:
First of all, I have to say that it's an absolute and very pleasant first by Formula1.com to post such videos.

Secondly, I have to say that the first two penalties were justified:

- Hamilton completely misjudged his braking for the first corner, and braked so hard that he locked up his tires. The ones that were to his left had to go straight on, in order to avoid the McLaren which could only go in a straight line, since the front wheels had locked up. If he had been mid-pack or, actually, anywhere lower than 5th place, he would have taken out the people ahead of him, much like Mauricio Gugelmin misjudged his braking into the first corner, at Paul Ricard, in 1989, and crashed into the back of Thierry Boutsen's Williams and Nigel Mansell's Ferrari. The race had to be stopped at that time.
Racing drivers always say "A rolling tire always stops better than a locked one". And it's true, since static friction is higher than rubbing friction, and a rolling tire's surface is actually static on contact with the tarmac.

- Massa's manoeuvre on Hamilton was over-optimistic, after all, he braked very very late in order to keep him behind, and he overshot the corner. Trying to get back on track, he saw Hamilton taking the normal line (Lewis had sold Massa a dummy at this phase), and he basically spun him out. He actually put two wheels on the grass in the attempt to get back past Hamilton, and he was fairly conclusively behind. It was always going to be Hamilton's corner, and Massa didn't accept that. It's a bit like the Senna-Schlesser incident at Monza, in 1988, with 2 laps to go, which broke the perfect season that McLaren had had up to that point, in the sense that the car in front took the line into the corner and the car behind T-boned it into a spin, only back then, the McLaren parked itself on the kerb with a cocked-up wheel, whereas this time it continued.

However, Bourdais' penalty was useless. I would have to call that as a racing incident, two cars side-by-side into a corner and one of them basically hits the throttle too hard and spins out. It would be something like the second start at Spa in 1998: Hakkinen got squeezed by Damon Hill, who took the lead, and he ended up side-by-side with Schumacher. They exited La Source side-by-side. Hakkinen, a bit over-eager to get on terms with his championship rival, hit the throttle too hard and spun. (He was then collected by Herbert's Sauber, but that's another story)


So that's two correct decisions out of three for the stewards this time. Not bad, considering that they made 0 out of 1 in some races.
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Have to say I agree with all this. Originally I was a bit 50/50 on the Hamilton penalty, but after seeing this extra footage, Hamilton very much deserved the penalty. The next 3 cars couldn't turn the corner because Hamilton was spearing across the track.
 
Vikirad stop showing off that you have watched every F1 race in existence :p

But good points and I agree with you wholeheartedly.
 
vikiradTG2007 said:
It would be something like the second start at Spa in 1998: Hakkinen got squeezed by Damon Hill, who took the lead, and he ended up side-by-side with Schumacher. They exited La Source side-by-side. Hakkinen, a bit over-eager to get on terms with his championship rival, hit the throttle too hard and spun. (He was then collected by Herbert's Sauber, but that's another story)
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Schumacher squeezed him, and you could clearly see that they touched on entry to the corner. I think the car looked unsettled and then Hakkinen put his foot down while the car was still bouncing around off the Ferrari's sidepod and round it went.

Good footage of those incidents though, thankyou to the F1 officials who made it available. I'm still a little unsure on the Hamilton/Raikkonen incident, and as for the Bourdais/Massa incident I saw nothing that suggested Bourdais did anything wrong. I think given Massa's recent history the penalty was given to the wrong man.
 
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I can't believe all the shit talking Massa is getting...

As you guys have said one needs to be aggressive in order to be a winner, well he was being aggressive. He didn't do anything wrong, Bourdais should've backed off and let him go through.
 
Cellos88GT said:
He didn't do anything wrong, Bourdais should've backed off and let him go through.
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Sorry, Red Car Rule, how silly of Bourdais to forget.
 
Cellos88GT said:
I can't believe all the shit talking Massa is getting...

As you guys have said one needs to be aggressive in order to be a winner, well he was being aggressive. He didn't do anything wrong, Bourdais should've backed off and let him go through.
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They were fighting for position, why on earth should he have given way?
 
Cellos88GT said:
to avoid hitting massa...
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So Massa should've given way to avoid hitting Hamilton?

Edit: Should add - imho Massa was 100% at fault for hitting Lewis - I'm just checking for any Red Car Double Standard.
 
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So everyone who is fighting Masse should give him way, therefore, Massa will win every race. Nice logic there...
 
I thought Massa had matured, after Malayasia this year we saw a very different Felipe Massa. In Turkey he let Hamilton by without too much hassle because he knew Hamilton was on a three stopper. Last race was embarassing.
 
Cellos88GT said:
to avoid hitting massa...
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You've got to be kidding me. It states in the rules and regulations that the person coming out of the pitlane on the inside of the turn has right of way. The guy on the straight can see him coming, and should ram him. Certainly after he gets a drive through for ramming someone else off track.

Massa's drving was not aggressive, it was reckless, he turned into lewis.
 
THE REAL STIG said:
You've got to be kidding me. It states in the rules and regulations that the person coming out of the pitlane on the inside of the turn has right of way. The guy on the straight can see him coming, and should ram him. Certainly after he gets a drive through for ramming someone else off track.
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Agreed. What was Bourdais suppose to do? He had no where to else to go, where as Massa did. Really, really stupid driving by Massa. An even more stupid decision by the stewards.
 
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