General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10472627.stm


Toyota warns about faulty engines

Japanese car giant Toyota has warned about potential faults with the engines of about 270,000 cars it has sold worldwide, including the luxury Lexus.

It said the engines could stall while being driven, but affected vehicles have not yet been recalled.

This is the latest problem to hit the carmaker, which has recalled more than 10 million vehicles globally since last September.

Fresh figures show Toyota's June sales were up 26.7% on a year ago.

A spokeswoman for the firm said some vehicles might have a problem with the valve spring in their engines, which could cause engine failure.

She added that no accidents had been reported.

Labour disputes

Toyota shares were down by more than 2% on Thursday.

But Kazaka Securities analyst Yoshihiko Tabei said investors would not be too perturbed, because if a recall occurred, costs would be limited.

He added recalls were not usually viewed negatively as long as they were carried out swiftly after problems emerged.

"It's not as if there has been an accident caused by the possible defect. Investors are not worried as long as carmakers act quickly to address quality problems," Mr Tabei said.

He said that labour disputes at parts suppliers in China were currently of far greater concern to the car industry.

Hmmm... they know there's a problem, it could cause potential hazards (breakdowns, sudden stops causing rear-end collisions, etc), but because no consumers have complained about it yet they aren't fixing it at the moment? Combined with the concern mainly for investors as people disadvantaged by this problem, I would not be very happy with Toyota at the moment if I owned one*. I know people will probably disagree with my interpretation there, but it seems to me that Toyota hasn't done/learnt too much from their shitstorm. It's definitely affected my parent's decision about their next car- no Toyotas whatsoever and Subarus are pretty much so off the list as of late (dad did some research and it seems- to him, not necessarily my opinion/finding- quality plummeted shortly after Toyota got their share of the business)

(* old Starlet doesn't count, it's my sister's :p)
 
I'm actually surprised and impressed.

Really, how often do you see a group of people so willing to screw themselves? When the first recalls hit I pointed out that I saw a major quality issue like this on the horizon almost ten years ago, and the Toyota-loves dismissed me. Even after the second gas pedal recall, they still maintained that it was a one-time event and that Toyota had fixed the problem. What is this, the sixth major recall for Toyota in less than a year and a continued disregard for public safety and repeated violations of US law? I wonder how many of those original Toyota lovers are still going to stand by the company after this one.
 
I'm actually surprised and impressed.

Really, how often do you see a group of people so willing to screw themselves? When the first recalls hit I pointed out that I saw a major quality issue like this on the horizon almost ten years ago, and the Toyota-loves dismissed me. Even after the second gas pedal recall, they still maintained that it was a one-time event and that Toyota had fixed the problem. What is this, the sixth major recall for Toyota in less than a year and a continued disregard for public safety and repeated violations of US law? I wonder how many of those original Toyota lovers are still going to stand by the company after this one.

Somehow the quick reply box ate my clever, insightful and witty reply so I'll have to cut it short. I still think that those original Toyota buyers will stand by them. I see brand new Camry's all the time here. People have a "it didn't happen to me, it was those dummies that ruined it all!" mentality, like this pithy example: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3163822&postcount=919 all the while dealing with oil hoses and such that burst unexpectedly in Toyota's 3.5 V6, etc... Add in Toyota's cash on the hood/free maintenace/dirt cheap lease deals, and if someone was considering potentially switching brands, it would tip Toyota in their favor. People are afraid of the unknown, and for those very very Toyota faithful the unknown is any domestic brand, due to misconceptions and poor experiences with them in the past.

I mean sure, auto enthusiasts usually have one or two brands they root for, that's cool. But, to me, a true brand enthusiast is willing to call out their favorite company's blunders front and center while celebrating their victories as well.

In other news, apparently other Toyota's besides Prius had brake override in the past:

The U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee is still pouring over Toyota's unintended acceleration issues, and right now the group is looking into older braking systems. Automotive News reports that the committee was told by investigators that an investigation of a 2005 Toyota Camry showed that some older model Toyotas were equipped with brake override systems (although not all newer models have such equipment). Toyota, as you may recall, has promised to equip all 2011 model year vehicles with a brake override system...

This causes me to pose several questions:
Why did Toyota cut brake override from future (current day) models? Was it a cost cutting thing? If so, really, how much money could they have saved by omitting literally a few lines of code? Perhaps a lot due to testing and validation of said code, etc.....but still, was that a safety feature that needed to be cost cut out of existence?

Why is it taking Toyota so long to equip it's range with brake override, especially since it's had it before? Hyundai/Kia was able to get their entire lineup, save for non DBW cars like Rio/Accent, Elantra, and Elantra Touring/i30 equipped with it beginning in February. Having to wait for it until 2011 on anything except Avalon, ES/Camry and IS is ridiculous and embarrassing for Toyota, especially since Highlander, Venza, and Sienna share the same underpinnings as Avalon, Camry and ES.
 
According to the BBC, they are now recalling the cars with the problems. They've got al list of the cars affected now too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10484639.stm

Toyota recalls 270,000 vehicles over faulty engine fear

Toyota has announced it will recall 270,000 cars worldwide because of an engine fault.

A Toyota spokesman said the recall included seven luxury Lexus models and the popular Toyota Crown.

The latest quality problem follows the recall of more than 8m vehicles which had problems with sticking accelerator pedals earlier this year.

The company was fined $16m (?10.6m) in the United States for its slow response to the accelerator fault.

The company is still facing more than 200 lawsuits tied to accelerator accidents.

Labour disputes

A spokeswoman for the firm said some vehicles might have a problem with the valve spring in their engines, which could cause the car to stall while being driven.

The defective 4.6-litre V8 and 3.5-litre V6 engines had been installed in eight top-line models including some hybrids - the Lexus GS350, GS450h, GS460, IS350, LS460, LS600h and LS600hL as well as the Crown sedan.

No accidents had been reported, the spokeswoman said.

Some 3,200 Lexus vehicles in the UK were involved, a spokesperson said, but no Toyotas.

"Lexus will do whatever it can to ensure that our customers' inconvenience is minimised as much as possible, decide on the details of any action, and inform our customers promptly," a company statement said.

Owners with concerns should contact their local dealer

I can see at least two in there that has had a recall earlier this year- the LS 460 $
Toyota recalls 270,000 vehicles over faulty engine fear

Page last updated at 01:45 GMT, Friday, 2 July 2010 02:45 UK

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Lexus LS460 at dealership in Van Nuys, California A number of Lexus models are affected by the recall

Toyota has announced it will recall 270,000 cars worldwide because of an engine fault.

A Toyota spokesman said the recall included seven luxury Lexus models and the popular Toyota Crown.

The latest quality problem follows the recall of more than 8m vehicles which had problems with sticking accelerator pedals earlier this year.

The company was fined $16m (?10.6m) in the United States for its slow response to the accelerator fault.

The company is still facing more than 200 lawsuits tied to accelerator accidents.
Labour disputes

A spokeswoman for the firm said some vehicles might have a problem with the valve spring in their engines, which could cause the car to stall while being driven.

The defective 4.6-litre V8 and 3.5-litre V6 engines had been installed in eight top-line models including some hybrids - the Lexus GS350, GS450h, GS460, IS350, LS460, LS600h and LS600hL as well as the Crown sedan.

No accidents had been reported, the spokeswoman said.

Some 3,200 Lexus vehicles in the UK were involved, a spokesperson said, but no Toyotas.

"Lexus will do whatever it can to ensure that our customers' inconvenience is minimised as much as possible, decide on the details of any action, and inform our customers promptly," a company statement said.

Owners with concerns should contact their local dealer& LS600H, which had the electronic steering issues back in May (thankyou Blind for that one). And judging by the phrase "...decide on the details of any action....", sounds like they don't know how to fix it yet (again). Bet you would be happy with Toyota if you owned one of those two models (and probably paid a fair bit for them). Didn't look back too far before that to see if any of these models have been recalled/had major issues before- we really need a database, I can't keep up :blink:
 
My 1.8 Verso would stall randomly - why we got shot of it, it was a brilliant package for what we wanted otherwise but put the wind right up the missus when it did it at Jct 9 of the M27 in the rush hour with all the kids on board and I was still at work. Took it to the dealer but the fix he applied (to the MMT gearbox I think) did not work and it did it again. I wonder if it is the exact same issue - I notice that the 1.8 4cyl is not on the list however.
 
A little on US edition of this latest recall from the Washington (com)Post:

Toyota plans U.S. recall of Lexus vehicles

Toyota said Friday that it intends to recall 138,000 Lexus vehicles in the United States to fix faulty engines, in the latest quality problem to afflict the Japanese automaker.

The company said flaws in valve springs, a crucial engine component, could make the vehicle stall while in motion. Toyota said in a statement that it plans to file paperwork with the U.S. government on the recall next week. The recall affects certain GS, IS and LS vehicles from the 2006-2008 model years powered by 4.6 and 5.0 liter V8 engines and 3.5 liter V6 engines. No accidents or injuries have been reported. Vehicles from the 2009 and 2010 model years are not affected.

That's actually worse than you'd think. Bad valve spring can mean a lunched engine.
 
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100711/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_the_professor

CARBONDALE, Ill. ? It's the kind of publicity any university might dream about: An instructor uncovers a possible flaw that's causing some of the world's most popular cars to accelerate suddenly. His ground-breaking work attracts interest from Congress and reporters worldwide.

But as Southern Illinois University's David Gilbert sought to show that electronics might be to blame for the problem in Toyotas, the world's largest automaker tried to cast doubt on his findings. One Toyota employee even questioned whether he should be employed by the school, which has long been a recipient of company donations.
Electronic messages obtained by The Associated Press show the automaker grew increasingly frustrated with Gilbert's work and made its displeasure clear to his bosses at the 20,000-student school.

"It did kind of catch us off-guard," university spokesman Rod Sievers said.
So did the fallout. Two Toyota employees quickly resigned from an advisory board of the school's auto-technology program, and the company withdrew offers to fund two spring-break internships.

"I didn't really set out to take on Toyota. I set out to tell the truth, and I felt very strongly about that," said Gilbert, who was among the first to suggest that electronics, not sticky gas pedals or badly designed floor mats, caused the acceleration that required the Japanese automaker to recall millions of vehicles.
Toyota insists its relationship with the school remains "strong," and company officials say they have no plans to stop contributing to SIU. They also say the two Toyota representatives who stepped down from the advisory board did so merely to avoid any appearance that the company was exerting influence over Gilbert's testimony.
"We have absolutely no issues with SIU and retain an excellent relationship. That won't change," Toyota spokeswoman Celeste Migliore said.

Driven by his own curiosity, Gilbert in January found he could manipulate the electronics in a Toyota Avalon to recreate the acceleration without triggering any trouble codes in the vehicle's computer. Such codes send the vehicle's computer into a fail-safe mode that allows the brake to override the gas.

Gilbert said he reported his "startling discovery" to Toyota, and the automaker "listened attentively." But Gilbert said he never heard back from the company, which has steadfastly maintained the problems were mechanical, not electronic.
Next, Gilbert told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, then made plans to tell Congress.


"I didn't feel I could just be passive in this," he said.
Along the way, Gilbert told the university in writing that he had been tapped as a consultant for a company called Safety Research & Strategies Inc., which asked him to study the safety of electronic throttle controls.

Gilbert's boss, Terry Owens, wished him well: "Good luck in your investigation," Owens wrote in a Feb. 10 e-mail. "I hope it leads to public safety and publications."
One of Gilbert's research partners, an assistant professor named Omar Trinidad, nervously asked Owens whether the findings would "negatively affect my tenure track or even jeopardize my tenure with SIUC? If you have any reservations on what we are doing, please do not hesitate to inform me."

Owens tried to reassure Trinidad: "If your investigations are upheld and have major impact resulting in papers, presentations, and national recognition of expertise, these are all factors that will benefit your research productivity."

Hours later, on the eve of his congressional testimony, Gilbert appeared in an ABC News "World News" report showing correspondent Brian Ross driving a Toyota rigged to quickly accelerate. When it did, a shaken Ross said he had a hard time getting the car to come to a stop.
ABC News later acknowledged that a picture in the segment showing a tachometer with its needle zooming forward was taken from a separate instance in which a short-circuit was induced in a parked car.

But almost immediately after the ABC report, media outlets began calling the school looking for Gilbert. By then, he was headed to Washington ? without a cell phone.
Hardly anyone at the university knew Gilbert was going to Washington to testify, Sievers said.

The next day, Gilbert made his case to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, and lawmakers seized on the testimony as proof Toyota engineers missed a potential problem with the electronics.

Gilbert's appearance unleashed a publicity firestorm that Southern Illinois scrambled to control. E-mail chatter among administrators talked of the need to tout Toyota's "very productive relationship" with the university.

Within days, a product-liability attorney representing Toyota said company attorneys wanted to meet with Gilbert and university officials to discuss Gilbert's use of donated Toyota vehicles and "related matters."


"We would like to explain our analysis of the situation and what we believe is a reasonable solution," Vincent Galvin wrote.

At the meeting four days later, Gilbert said, the visitors pressed him to justify his testimony ? something he refused to do, saying he stood by his sworn statements to Congress.

Gilbert, who owns a Toyota Tundra pickup, believes the meeting "was meant to maybe intimidate me."

The university asked Gilbert and Jack Greer ? director of the auto-technology program ? to fly to California to see a demonstration at Exponent Inc., a consulting firm hired by Toyota.

"I wasn't really sure what the point of the trip was, but to keep the peace, I agreed to go," Gilbert said.

Toyota did not wait for that visit to fire back. Six days later, a group of experts assembled by Toyota to refute Gilbert's findings told reporters his experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

Gilbert's work "could result in misguided policy and unwarranted fear," Chris Gerdes, director of Stanford University's Center for Automotive Research, told reporters. His organization is funded by a group of auto companies that include Toyota.
To Gilbert, "it seemed like an awful large amount of effort to be extended by a company to dispel something." He was unswayed by what he saw in California.
The pressure on him continued to build. On March 8, Mark Thompson ? identifying himself as an SIU alum and, without elaboration, a Toyota Motor Sales employee ? voiced in an e-mail to the university's then-chancellor, Sam Goldman, his "great concern and disappointment" about Gilbert. Thompson said he was "deeply disturbed" by what he called Gilbert's false accusations about the automaker.

Thompson reminded Goldman that he and Toyota regularly contributed to the university ? including a $100,000 check to the auto-tech program in late 2008 ? and "due to the outstanding reputation your automotive technology program has, we donate much more than money," including cars.

"I ask you why your organization allows such activities to be performed by one of your professors and most importantly allowed to be reported to the media in a false manner," Thompson wrote. "I believe he should not be an employee of our fine university."

Goldman later assured Thompson that "we are taking this matter very seriously for the reasons you cite in your e-mail and for our very strong desire to maintain our relationship with Toyota."

As a research university, Goldman added, faculty are allowed to research independently and publish their findings, while observing ethical and conflict-of-interest guidelines.

Gilbert insists he never felt his job was threatened, though "there were some moments where I kind of felt I was standing alone."

Still, he said, if his work "can somehow make a car safer in the very narrow scope of electronic throttle controls ... then to me it's worth it. Because that could be someone's life that I could be saving."
 
Stay classy Toyota.
 
Yahoo comments are brilliant...

The whole point of his experiment was to prove the computers didn't register the short circuit right? And not to make it accelerate.
 
Don't really see anything wrong with what they did there, except for the email from... a "salesman".

People on this very forum had a problem with the way the test was conducted (I'm no expert so I'll defer to the opinions of the better informed) and made very good points. Having their people resign from the board of advisers so as to avoid a conflict of interest makes sense. Meeting with the guy to find out what he was playing at, well that makes sense, too.

Pulling up an email from someone from "sales" doesn't really mean much in this situation unless he was acting in an official capacity, someone "going to bat" for the company they work for can't really be used to condemn the company itself.
 
The experiment was flawed as all hell though, and Toyota has a point when it comes to that. He never proved that this was what was happening in the wild, just that this is a potential problem which he induced by modding the pedal substantially.

I don't blame Toyota on this one, it's bad press, and the experiment was flawed enough that it was in their best interests to refute it. Had the guy gone far enough to find a way that this short circuit could happen in the wild without a pedal mod this might be objectionable, but since he didn't go all the way with the experiment Toyota pretty much had to refute him.
 
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/13/...log+(Autoblog)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Back in February, The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration initiated an investigation of 749,685 2009 and 2010 model year Corolla and Matrix vehicles for a potential steering issue. And while we haven't heard much from the government agency regarding this issue, the Detroit Free Press reports that Toyota has indicated that the problem is not a safety defect and thus doesn't warrant a recall. Instead, the automaker will provide a free fix to customers who claim to have an issue.

NHTSA reportedly launched the investigation after 168 reports that Corolla and Matrix electric power steering units were prone to drifting or locking up, with the problem most notable when cruising at highway speeds. Toyota has reportedly told the Free Press that it has collected a total of 437 reports, including 11 injuries and 18 crashes. Further, the automaker has been receiving complaints about this issue since 2008. Spokesperson Brian Lyons reportedly tells the Freep that the majority of issues involve wandering from the dead-ahead steering position and that the company considers the problem a customer satisfaction issue, not a defect.

To address customer concerns, Toyota has sent a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) to its dealers advising technicians to check tire pressure and alignment. If that doesn't fix the problem, the next step is to replace the computer that governs the electric power steering with a new unit that has been re-tuned with a different steering feel.

Not classifying the Corolla/Matrix issues as a safety defect figures to save the Japanese company a lot of cash that would be tied up in a recall. Toyota will also avoid having to update regulators, who were informed of its decision to forgo recall proceedings way back in May. NHTSA hasn't publicly said anything since the Toyota proclamation and the investigation is reportedly still ongoing. With 11 injuries, 18 crashes and hundreds of reported problems, we're very interested to see if NHTSA ultimately agrees with Toyota on this one, or if the situation will eventually result in another recall and additional bad publicity for the automaker. Likewise, with General Motors having sold its own Matrix twin, the Pontiac Vibe, it presumably faces the same sort of steering issue. If so, it will be interesting to see if the Detroit automaker chooses to address the issue in the same way.

That's not a "safety concern," it's a "feature!"

And way to go, Toyota, it's nice to see that you've learned from that whole gas pedal fiasco.
 
NEW YORK ? The Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of black boxes in Toyota vehicles involved in accidents blamed on unintended acceleration, finding the throttles were open and the brakes were not engaged, the Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday.

That suggests that drivers of the speeding cars were stepping on the accelerator rather than hitting the brakes. The vehicles investigated came from a sample in which the drivers said they were braking but failed to stop the car before crashing, the newspaper said, citing unnamed sources familiar with the findings.

Transportation Department officials declined to confirm the report and did not comment. Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has not shared its findings with the Japanese automaker but said their own findings from investigations of unintended acceleration are consistent with the report.

The black boxes, called event data recorders, are devices that track a number of details about a vehicle around the time of an accident, including which pedals were applied and how fast the car was traveling.

Toyota has recalled more than 8.5 million vehicles worldwide since last fall due to faulty accelerators, floor mats that may trap gas pedals, and brake problems in Priuses, among other problems. The largest problems were due to unintended acceleration, which the automaker has sought to address by fixing the gas pedals and floor mats.

The government has said unintended acceleration in Toyotas may have been involved in the deaths of 93 people over the past decade. The agency has received about 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas.

Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel with the National Academy of Sciences reviewing unintended acceleration last month that the agency had not yet found any defects beyond the two problems cited by Toyota: pedals that can become entrapped by floor mats and sticking accelerator pedals.
 
Source?
 
It seems like it's turning out to be what I have been suspecting from the beginning: Those "accidents" are simply the result of incapable drivers. It more and more looks like a complete discharge for Toyota.

Three points had me having doubts from the beginning:

1. The brakeforce of every modern car easily outweighs the power of the drive train, even with the engine at full power. So stepping hard on the brakes should stall the engine instantly -- unless the brake pedal isn't used, which is of course driver error (or incompetence).

2. Those "accidents by unwanted acceleration" almost only happened in the USA -- which made me suspicious from the beginning of the whole affair. Because it's an open secret that the number of incompetent people in the USA is directly related to lawyers there, who are willing to sue corporations for the most ridiculous reasons.

3. It was a too convenient coincidence, that it happened to Toyota, just as GM and Ford were struggling for survival.

But I suppose the mission is accomplised nevertheless: Toyota's reputation is damaged for years to come and I have a nagging feeling that was the actual goal.
 
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Turns out that article was a plant by Toyota? Whodathunk?


Autoblog said:
When The Wall Street Journal reported that crash data obtained by the U.S. Department of Transportation pegged the blame for Toyota's unintended acceleration on drivers, one line stuck out:
"A NHTSA spokeswoman declined to comment on the findings, which haven't been released by the agency."
With no official word from the DOT or NHTSA on its findings in the case, the WSJ's sources have been called into question.

According to an unnamed NHTSA spokeswomen speaking with Just-Auto, "The story was planted by Toyota. Toyota is the source ? yes we know that for definite [sic]. It is [the] Toyota PR machine. We knew they were going to put it out."

There's no doubt Toyota is in close contact with the DOT and NHTSA, so there's a good chance that Toyota has been privy to the findings ahead of their official release. However, until something official comes down from the Feds, the exact causes of unintended acceleration aren't simply open and shut.

We're in the process of contacting both NHTSA and Toyota about the story and will update you as more information is collected.

UPDATE: A NHTSA spokesperson has confirmed that the agency hasn't released any information to the WSJ, but declined to comment if Toyota has gained advanced access to the agency's findings.

UPDATE 2: A report by the Detroit Free Press quotes NHTSA Administrator David Strickland as saying that the agency has "several more months of work" to complete before it can definitively come to a conclusion on the cause of unintended acceleration.

UPDATE 3: We've asked Toyota's National Manager for Environmental, Quality, and Safety Communications, John Hanson, if NHTSA has been supplying information to Toyota on its investigation. His response: "It's been a one-way valve [to NHTSA]. We've been supplying information and sending it to NHTSA. We are not aware of any study. We are not aware of any report. We've been compiling our own field reports on unintended acceleration and as we investigate them, we send them to NHTSA. The WSJ report was news to us."
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/report-wsj-unintended-acceleration-story-planted-by-toyota/
 
It seems like it's turning out to be what I have been suspecting from the beginning: Those "accidents" are simply the result of incapable drivers. It more and more looks like a complete discharge for Toyota.

Three points had me having doubts from the beginning:

1. The brakeforce of every modern car easily outweighs the power of the drive train, even with the engine at full power. So stepping hard on the brakes should stall the engine instantly -- unless the brake pedal isn't used, which is of course driver error (or incompetence).

2. Those "accidents by unwanted acceleration" almost only happened in the USA -- which made me suspicious from the beginning of the whole affair. Because it's an open secret that the number of incompetent people in the USA is directly related to lawyers there, who are willing to sue corporations for the most ridiculous reasons.

3. It was a too convenient coincidence, that it happened to Toyota, just as GM and Ford were struggling for survival.

But I suppose the mission is accomplised nevertheless: Toyota's reputation is damaged for years to come and I have a nagging feeling that was the actual goal.

1) An automatic should be impossible to stall from driver pedal input. Not to mention, in these Toyotas, both are Drive by Wire, in which case it's up to software if the driver input makes it to the hardware.

2) Honest question, are the defective parts exclusive to US models? And driver incompetence has nothing to do with trigger-happy lawyers and everything to do with less than desirable driver education. The lawyers are a result.

3) GM and Chrysler crashed hard, Ford managed to survive on its own, no need to bring them into this :p

Finally, see above. Toyota is hardly innocent in the way this has developed.
 
It should also be noted that the problems seem to be limited to models that are only sold in North America, so problems wouldn't appear elsewhere in the world since the afflicted cars aren't sold elsewhere.
 
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