The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

So it has nothing to do with clean energy, huh?


The energy is a side effect of the reaction needed to create the material to make better bombs.

I also know we are not creating new weapons on the scale we used to(if at all). The nuclear energy we get is a hold over from when we were making them almost as fast as we could. We are still stuck with the legacy on many levels.


Empathy has jack shit to do with policy making, in fact it can be a huge disservice. Policy is pure classical utilitarianism, greatest good for greatest number of people, by necessity policy will always hurt SOME people, there is no pleasing everyone.

TC sort of covered it already, the biggest difference between the left and the right is the former believe in governmental responsibility, as in it's government's job to take care of citizens. The latter believe in personal responsibility, that is to say that humans take care of themselves and that makes the whole society work.

The right inherently distrusts the government and wants it to have as little power as possible, which is why mandated anything is a very big pain point with the right. It's nothing to do with empathy and everything to do with being forced at barrel's end.


I get that not everyone will be helped, but that is no excuse for throwing many under the bus.




No nuclear is evil and it kills baby otters, don't be telling me how nuclear is cleaner than just about any other type of non-renewable, if it's not wind powered it's not good!



Except that pesky waste stuff.
 
I think the right wingers(at least the ones I have talked to) lack any empathy. This is apparent in many issues they talk about.

Their actual error is to think of being indestructibly healthy, and that their income will always support the aid they need if they plan it correctly.

This combines with the individualistic (and not necessarily bad in theory) idea that everyone should earn their life and should be able to use what they earned.

The short-circuit they can't see sets in when they think of themselves in the future: they clearly don't think of the possibility of getting so ill they can't support themselves nor the treatment they need or will need. A possibility which is indeed very real. They probably think that those who end up that way are only those people who managed their resources badly, but unfortunately this is far from truth.

Given that, most of them can't see that having someone non-productive in a society because they can't work (or even sadistically get rid of them) is generally far worse for the entire society than paying their treatments and allow them to work again and be productive (thus repaying the cost of the treatment). This blindness has probably to do with their individualistic nature, which most of the times is an effect of being unable to think things through to unexpected scenarios.

Republicans donate more to charity than being Democrats though...

Charity means thinking of other people -AFTER- thinking for oneself. It is coherent with an empathic individualism, but it still doesn't consider the other people as part of a group with which to share goods and bads, as part of a community.

This is why it is more common amongst Republicans. Democrats tries more to solve things -before- needing to resort to charity. But this means taxes. There's no way to put it: if you want to help other people, you have to spend money.
 
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I get that not everyone will be helped, but that is no excuse for throwing many under the bus.
Not really the point I was making. Though ACA is objectively terrible and needs to be gotten rid of, just get single payer done already.

Except that pesky waste stuff.
It can be dealt with, not easily but can. If it weren't for all the NIMBYs and general anti-nuclear attitudes we would have made more progress in building better reactors.
 
Republicans donate more to charity than being Democrats though...

I don't consider buying some dipship megachurch's pastor private plane "charity", even if the tax code does.
 
Charity means thinking of other people -AFTER- thinking for oneself.
Your entire post is just one assumption stacked on top of another assumption.

The fact is, "right wingers" understand that most of their tax money goes towards social programs. But they still donate to charity anyway. They don't just assume that the government will take care of everyone, so no additional aid is needed.

And if you believe that you, or anyone else, thinks of others before themselves, then you're living in a fantasy. Even now, with this new tax plan, all I hear are people complaining about themselves, their health insurance costs, their overall tax rates, their personal deductions. No thought given to whether this tax plan might actually help those at the very bottom, those most in need. And there is nothing wrong with that. We all have our own priorities. We have our families to support and our futures to consider. I've never met a person who shared a studio apartment with multiple people and walked to work, just so they can donate 90% of their income to charity. People are always going to take care of themselves and their families first, including things that might be considered luxuries like living in a real house and driving a new car, before they spare a thought for those most in need of assistance.
 
doesn't consider the other people as part of a group with which to share goods and bads, as part of a community..
Actually you are completely off on that. The idea is quite the opposite, your community is there to help you, not the government. This is something that Ben Shapiro talks about quite a bit, members of the community who are doing well donate to some sort of a charity inside the community and the money is used as needed. This is something that is quite bit in Judaism, you are supposed to do good in your community with whatever resources you have. Logic behind this is quite sound, a local level safety net is always going to be more efficient than a government one with multiple layers of bureaucracy. In fact this exact system was in place before FDR's New Deal and The Great Depression.
 
To summarize: energy exists only to drop bombs on poor people; half the population of this country wants poor people to die; and the only answer is socialism. I feel dumber after reading this last page of this thread.


Where did I say that the bombs were to be dropped on poor people?

You need to do some reading on the Manhattan Project and the development of the first atomic bombs. The first nuclear plant to produce plutonium only came about because of that program (Hanford). Because it is still being cleaned up, that is a direct cost that is due to the military, and it is wrapped up in the DOE's budget.
 
I?m really on a totally different side of the tax debate.

I don?t think we get enough for the taxes we pay. So i?d rather see more benefits or pay less in taxes. Unfortunately, the dems and repubs aren?t offering me anything to support.
 
Your entire post is just one assumption stacked on top of another assumption.

So it seems, but... is it?

The fact is, "right wingers" understand that most of their tax money goes towards social programs. But they still donate to charity anyway. They don't just assume that the government will take care of everyone, so no additional aid is needed.

If they weren't doing so, they would be unempathetic. Some are, but most are decent people.

The point is not they are not empathetic, the point is they think individualisticly.

And if you believe that you, or anyone else, thinks of others before themselves, then you're living in a fantasy.

Why not doing both at the same time?

Even now, with this new tax plan, all I hear are people complaining about themselves, their health insurance costs, their overall tax rates, their personal deductions. No thought given to whether this tax plan might actually help those at the very bottom, those most in need.

Can it?

And there is nothing wrong with that. We all have our own priorities.

Yes, first the self, then the rest. Which is indeed natural, as you said it. It all depends on where one ends and the other starts. For individualistic people, "others" start quite far indeed.

We have our families to support and our futures to consider.

Yes, and that comes -before- even thinking of, I don't know, free healthcare, so you don't want to pay taxes for free healthcare before having considered your future and your family.

That is -exactly- what I was saying. Empathetic? Yes. Individualistic? Yes. Stupid? Not really. But you might be the one needing expensive healthcare, or your family, yet you -still- think free healthcare is something to consider -after- many others. Plus, you don't consider that those people who won't be able to afford their own healthcare will become improductive and still need money, probably more than giving them healthcare.

You seem to have confirmed exactly what I was saying.

I've never met a person who shared a studio apartment with multiple people and walked to work, just so they can donate 90% of their income to charity.

Extremizing is pointless, it just derails the discussion.

People are always going to take care of themselves and their families first, including things that might be considered luxuries like living in a real house and driving a new car, before they spare a thought for those most in need of assistance.

Not really. It all depends on their level of individualism, and that, most of the time, depends on the kind of society they live in. if it is fragmented, yes. But what if it is united?

By absolutizing the statement, you are confirming what I said in the last message.

Actually you are completely off on that. The idea is quite the opposite, your community is there to help you, not the government.

The State -IS- a form of community. And charity alone cannot be as organized as a fully developed governmental machine, first of all because only a portion of the people will donate. unempathetic people won't, full stop. This doesn't take away the fact that beureaucracy tends to waste -a lot- of money, and that charity might actually beat the state depending on the specific characteristics of the people and area involved, but a decently-managed state support will make charity disappear by the sheer dimension of the effort it can put into action.

How can you imply that republicans expect to cover all medical costs of pocket when they support the idea of people having insurance?

I haven't said that, I said that they usually think they are enough to provide enough resources to suport them and their family (including insurance), clearly not taking into due account the risk of highly expensive bad turns in their own lives.

Are you about to argue that it's unfair to reap the benefits of your labor?

Not at all. What part of "not necessarily bad in theory" don't you understand?

No one thinks that. No one.

Then why aren't they willing to pay a bit now to avoid the risk of being among those who will be having a harsh time regardless of their own actions? Are they masochists?

You are, once again, completely wrong and showing your utter ignorance. Even die-hard hardline libertarians support helping those in need.

If they support this, why are they opposing so strongly the idea of public healthcare coverage?

Yeah but I'm better than many people - for example, I work and don't take handouts, which cannot be said for a sizable portion of the population.

You speak like I was speaking of people who don't -want- to work, as opposed to me speaking of those who -would like to work but are not able to-

The world is full of people who only get a limited possibility to work and produce because of bad luck, not because of bad will. By denying them things like healthcare coverage you are equating them to "leeches", and you are punishing them as if they were part of that group. This is probably also why you see waste everywhere, but need nowhere.

Like:

not a single illegal should ever get a single cent of my tax dollars.

Are they not human beings who are living in the same territory? What if they -wanted- to integrate and came there illegally because they would have otherwise died?

That being said, it should be pretty obvious that you always help yourself first

As with TC, you are proving my point. Why not helping both you and other people -at the same time-? Particularly after certain basic needs have been addressed.

I'm happy to spend money to help people... voluntarily. What I'm not happy with is having a third of my paycheck stolen from me every month to help policies that I don't support (e.g. the war on drugs)

You'd probably need to pay more in costs for crime rate, law enforcement and rehabilitation centres. Drug addicts would exist nonetheless.

, fund social security that I likely won't benefit from by the time I retire

That is indeed a real problem, if not addressed correctly.

, and pay for food stamps for years on end for some welfare queen with ten kids by ten different fathers.

She would be there nonetheless. What would you rather do to her and her children? Let all ten of them starve?

If I had more of my own money in my pocket, I'd donate even more to charity than I currently do (and as most republicans and libertarians do).

Charity alone cannot do the same as a decently-managed state healthcare. There is no way that the amount of money collected could be enough to match the possibilties offered through taxation. Unless, of course, you somehow convinced people to donate by some kind of persuasive method, like religion, for example. But that of course wouldn't be enough. Europe was a deeply religious place once, yet charity couldn't solve a fraction of the problems that are taken care of today. Mostly, charity is unpurposed and address the symptoms, not the cause.
 
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If they weren't doing so, they would be unempathetic. Some are, but most are decent people.

The point is not they are not empathetic, the point is they think individualisticly.
My point is that everyone thinks the same way, some are just in denial about it.

Why not doing both at the same time?
For one, it's a silly statement in the first place. How do you know which thought came first in each person's mind? Themselves? Others? Both simultaneously?

Second, again, is just human nature. If you budget your money, you usually start with the important stuff. Rent, utilities, food, etc. Once you got yourself squared away, then you can see what you have left over and decide what to do with that. I reject this idea that some people, those that don't think "individualistically", think first about giving to charity before considering their own bills, obligations, and expenses.

I also reject this mindset that one can take pride in social programs that were in place before you were even born. You didn't have a say in it, a vote in it, it's been the norm for as long as you've been alive. You cannot take credit for it. If you even tried to refuse to pay into such programs, you could/would be imprisoned for tax evasion, so it's like you have any free will over it. Charity, on the other hand, seems far more indicative of true empathy, regardless of whether the charity spends the money wisely or not.


Yes, and that comes -before- even thinking of, I don't know, free healthcare, so you don't want to pay taxes for free healthcare before having considered your future and your family.

That is -exactly- what I was saying. Empathetic? Yes. Individualistic? Yes. Stupid? Not really. But you might be the one needing expensive healthcare, or your family, yet you -still- think free healthcare is something to consider -after- many others. Plus, you don't consider that those people who won't be able to afford their own healthcare will become improductive and still need money, probably more than giving them healthcare.

You seem to have confirmed exactly what I was saying.
Each person prioritizes differently. I'm fortunate enough to be healthy as an ox. Yet I still purchase health insurance just in case I'm the one who may end up needing expensive healthcare. But for my own personal situation it's not high on my list of priorities. Others will be different.

My biggest issue with single payer, socialized healthcare, is that the government wastes a lot of money and they are not nearly as accountable to the people as they should be. I want healthcare to be as cheap and affordable as possible, as easily attainable as possible, for everyone. But there are different ways of doing things.

I worry that we have inefficient systems in place that almost ensure corruption. Even our hospitals participate, when they charge $20 for a single Advil, because they know the insurance company will pay it, who in turn raises the rates on their customers. Our colleges started jacking up tuition the moment the government started backing student loans. Anytime the government or insurance foots the bill, the prices skyrocket.

Serious question, what would happen if health insurance was made illegal? What would happen if hospitals and other healthcare industries could only accept cash payments? What would they do if almost no one could afford any of their services or products at their current prices?

Things would probably change, and quick, is my guess.
 
The State -IS- a form of community.
No, it isn't. A state is a purely political construct, even in your land of togetherness there are differences between Sardagna, Sicily, Rome, etc... Hell in my own city each borough has slightly different cultures and stereotypes associated with it.

And charity alone cannot be as organized as a fully developed governmental machine, first of all because only a portion of the people will donate. unempathetic people won't, full stop.
And there will be people who are mooching off the system and those who hide their income and avoid taxes, what's your point?

but a decently-managed state support will make charity disappear by the sheer dimension of the effort it can put into action

There is the problem right there...
If they support this, why are they opposing so strongly the idea of public healthcare coverage?
Because of the above, the idea is that government cannot properly and efficiently manage anything, we have many examples of that. Government is inefficient by design, it cannot behave like a private business.


You speak like I was speaking of people who don't -want- to work, as opposed to me speaking of those who -would like to work but are not able to-
He never said he was against helping those who cannot work. They are not the problem and no one with a shred of humanity in them would ever claim so.

Are they not human beings who are living in the same territory? What if they -wanted- to integrate and came there illegally because they would have otherwise died?
Sux to be them really.

As with TC, you are proving my point. Why not helping both you and other people -at the same time-? Particularly after certain basic needs have been addressed.
Because again, it is not voluntary and goes to support a whole lot of things that it shouldn't.

You'd probably need to pay more in costs for crime rate, law enforcement and rehabilitation centres. Drug addicts would exist nonetheless.
War on drugs causes crime, it doesn't reduce it, look up "Prohibition"

She would be there nonetheless. What would you rather do to her and her children? Let all ten of them starve?
Actually she wouldn't because she wouldn't be able to afford to do that on her own.

Charity alone cannot do the same as a decently-managed state healthcare. There is no way that the amount of money collected could be enough to match the possibilties offered through taxation. Unless, of course, you somehow convinced people to donate by some kind of persuasive method, like religion, for example. But that of course wouldn't be enough. Europe was a deeply religious place once, yet charity couldn't solve a fraction of the problems that are taken care of today. Mostly, charity is unpurposed and address the symptoms, not the cause.
If government decently manages things then Communism is the best absolute form of government, I don't think I need to explain to you how well that works...
 
prizrak;n3422687 said:
No, it isn't. A state is a purely political construct, even in your land of togetherness there are differences between Sardagna, Sicily, Rome, etc... Hell in my own city each borough has slightly different cultures and stereotypes associated with it.

It is the same concept applied to different sizes.

Because of the above, the idea is that government cannot properly and efficiently manage anything, we have many examples of that. Government is inefficient by design, it cannot behave like a private business.

Government can surely be wasteful and corrupt. I have in never said that government is always better than other options. It is a different level of complexity, though, and while it creates more challenges, it also opens up possibilities that are simply not available in small scale. The Us wouldn't have won WWII if they were 200.000 small communities banding together their badly-equipped rifleman, the US won WWII because they had carriers and bombers and a continental-sized coordinated industrial effort backing the army up. (the same is more true for the USSR).

What can be achieved at a State level can't be in a small community. But this also pose new problems, there's no denying it.

He never said he was against helping those who cannot work. They are not the problem and no one with a shred of humanity in them would ever claim so.

Sux to be them really.

Helping people who can't work because they have a physical illness is humane, helping people who can't work because they are born in the wrong place and have fled somewhere else is not necessary.

You are confirming what I was saying.

If government decently manages things then Communism is the best absolute form of government, I don't think I need to explain to you how well that works...

You are confusing two different things. A government -can- indeed get better results than smaller entities, but that is not a given, it depends on how things are managed, and thinking a government can do everything everywhere always better will lead to nothing (see Communism).

LeVeL;n3422679 said:
If they didn't take into account that risk, they wouldn't pay for insurance...

Have they taken into account things that insurance will never pay, things that will have you dropped by the insurance, the possibility of not being able to afford an insurance?

Clearly not.

Because that's going too far. Consider a straight line spectrum - all the way on the right you have zero public assistance (Ayn Rand territory); all the way on the left you have single payer healthcare; why can't we meet somewhere in the middle?

We should meet somewhere in the middle, only I think you are in a part of the spectrum which is quite near the Ayn Rand territory.

Why can't they work? Even the physically disabled could do certain jobs. I suspect that the real answer lies in that they don't *want* to do certain types of work.

I'd like that to be true, but it isn't. We live in a world that asks everybody to work as a healthy 30yo male with career aims. That is not the peak of productivity, that is the baseline; anyone who is not on that standard, is paid less and less. Someone with a disabilty is simply discarded.

Also, you're missing the point - the left seems to think that there are no leeches at all

What other people think don't impact one bit on what reality is, and I don't think it is a good idea to cathgorize the world as if only two positions could be possible, so that if you disagree with someone it automatically means you are on the other side. That is a stupid simplification and should be dropped.

Don't care, not my problem. My family spent years trying to come here legally and has worked for a living ever since - I won't shed a single tear for an illegal.

This confirm what I said in that post.

Because I and my loved ones are more important to me than you and yours. I'll take care of my own FIRST, and then help you out if I can.

This is -ecactly- confirming what I said earlier.

If we didn't allow the welfare state to become what it has, she would've realized from the get-go that popping out kids isn't the thing that will let her keep collecting welfare - she wouldn't have the financial motivation to have so many offspring.

Do you think this would have stopped stupidity from being stupid? But anyway, the problem is you now have those 10 kids. How do you deal with them? The what ifs are not solving the problem.

You're still missing the point. I am not and have never advocated for the complete elimination of all public assistance programs in favor of private charity by itself. I do support even welfare programs but only to a certain degree.

The US today already has a low intervention of the government in society, particulary on social security and healthcare. People who want to reduce it even more are pointing to a reduction beyond usefulness. Anyway, I can agree with the -proper- use of tools and possibilities and with the fight to corruption, waste and counterproductive actions. It is a matter of the single actions, though, and other problems are there, because a private company gatting overpaid for a treatment is as corrput and possibly more wasteful than a random guy getting paid for doing, for example.
 
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TC;n3422678 said:
Each person prioritizes differently. I'm fortunate enough to be healthy as an ox. Yet I still purchase health insurance just in case I'm the one who may end up needing expensive healthcare. But for my own personal situation it's not high on my list of priorities. Others will be different.

The thing is, you don't know whether you'll be as healthy as an ox in the future, and for how long, and as much as I hope you will, you are actually gambling on chaces that are way higher than you think.

For example, I was diagnosed with a health problem when I was 17, before which I prided myself with my health and resistance. That was as far from truth as possible. It took me 16 years to get surgery for that, because that was the way of the illness, plus all the regular controls and checks before and after. In the US system, it would have amounted to something like 200k dollars, which I didn't have and I couldn't earn because the problem made working quite difficult for me. In the US, I'd be broke, homeless and, possibly dead, because I might have not taken the right controls from the beginning and subsequently ignored the symptoms, which by the way were regarded by other people as me being lazy or weak or scared.

I got it all for free, and now I can work and be productive. That is a huge difference. In the US, I'd probably be a guy living off social security in some shack somewhere.

My biggest issue with single payer, socialized healthcare, is that the government wastes a lot of money and they are not nearly as accountable to the people as they should be. I want healthcare to be as cheap and affordable as possible, as easily attainable as possible, for everyone. But there are different ways of doing things.

I worry that we have inefficient systems in place that almost ensure corruption. Even our hospitals participate, when they charge $20 for a single Advil, because they know the insurance company will pay it, who in turn raises the rates on their customers. Our colleges started jacking up tuition the moment the government started backing student loans. Anytime the government or insurance foots the bill, the prices skyrocket.

You are right: there are several ways of doing things; there will also be a fisiological rate of corruption. I think it is wrong that the State pay for the bills but lets the private companies to which it pays set the price of their services. This will -always- lead to a waste of money.

Serious question, what would happen if health insurance was made illegal? What would happen if hospitals and other healthcare industries could only accept cash payments? What would they do if almost no one could afford any of their services or products at their current prices?

Hospital will reduce their prices, but people will start avoiding the more expensive (and more often then not more effective) diagnostics, treatments, drugs. You'd have a general reduction of the population's health, a higher number of people who are simply crushed by their povertty, bad luck or bad spending habit, a fall in people's productivity and a focusing on savings for healthcare, with much higher amount of money locked away for the rainy days, so less money circulating in the economy.
 
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Trump is due to speak today in Utah and will probably shrink the size of the Bears Ears National Monument, some news reports are expecting a 90% reduction in protected lands (citing Senator Orrin Hatch) to make way for oil and gas drilling. There have already been protests over the weekend, including people spelling out "Trump Go Home" on the capitol lawn.
 
So, um, yeah. Our President, being, him.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...bcfa30-d6bd-11e7-b62d-d9345ced896d_story.html

Trump?s campaign: Big Macs, screaming fits and constant rivalries

Elton John blares so loudly on Donald Trump?s campaign plane that staffers can?t hear themselves think. Press secretary Hope Hicks uses a steamer to press Trump?s pants ? while he is still wearing them. Trump screams at his top aides, who are subjected to ?expletive-filled tirades in which they get their ?face ripped off.?

And Trump?s appetite seems to know no bounds when it comes to McDonald?s, with a dinner order consisting of ?two Big Macs, two Fillet-O-Fish, and a chocolate malted.?
...
?Sooner or later, everybody who works for Donald Trump will see a side of him that makes you wonder why you took a job with him in the first place,? the authors wrote. ?His wrath is never intended as any personal offense, but sometimes it can be hard not to take it that way. The mode that he switches into when things aren?t going his way can feel like an all-out assault; it?d break most hardened men and women into little pieces.?

The authors ?both had moments where they wanted to parachute off Trump Force One,? but they said they got used to it.

Lewandowski provides a largely admiring portrait of his former boss, saving the skewer for score-settling anecdotes about Paul Manafort, the former campaign chairman and rival whom Lewandowski blames for his ouster. The Post obtained an advance copy of the book, which is scheduled for release on Tuesday.

In a section of the book written by Lewandowski, Trump is described as flying on his helicopter when he learns that Manafort has said ?Trump shouldn?t be on television anymore, that he shouldn?t be on the Sunday shows? and that Manafort should appear instead. Trump was angrier than Lewandowski had ever seen him, ordering the pilot to lower the altitude so he could make a cellphone call.

?Did you say I shouldn?t be on TV on Sunday? I?ll go on TV anytime I g--dam f---ing want and you won?t say another f---ing word about me!? Trump yelled at Manafort, according to Lewandowski. ?Tone it down? I wanna turn it up! .?.?. You?re a political pro? Let me tell you something. I?m a pro at life. I?ve been around a time or two. I know guys like you, with your hair and skin .?.?.?
...
The aide?s satisfaction at the takedown didn?t last long, however, as he ?immediately got a phone call? from Trump?s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, ?telling me I wasn?t a team player and that I?d thrown Paul under the bus.? Lewandowski wrote that Manafort soon arranged for him to be fired.
...
In another episode, Lewandowski describes how staffer Sam Nunberg was purposely left behind at a McDonald?s because Nunberg?s special-order burger was taking too long. ?Leave him,? Trump said. ?Let?s go.? And they did.

And so much more... holy crap, what a walking shit-show, and you can bet the White House is being run exactly the same way.
 
SirEdward;n3541419 said:
You are right: there are several ways of doing things; there will also be a fisiological rate of corruption. I think it is wrong that the State pay for the bills but lets the private companies to which it pays set the price of their services. This will -always- lead to a waste of money.
Unfortunately there isn't much you could do about it, without completely stifling innovation. But that is already a problem now, when all the money is in treatments, rather than cures. So long as insurance companies, or the government, is willing to foot the bill, there is absolutely no motivation to innovate better cheaper solutions and treatments.

SirEdward;n3541419 said:
Hospital will reduce their prices, but people will start avoiding the more expensive (and more often then not more effective) diagnostics, treatments, drugs.
If you acknowledge that they would have to reduce prices, then it stands to reason that it would extend to "effective" treatments and tests, as well as, drugs. The whole point, after all, is ensuring that you actually have customers. Kinda hard to stay in business without them. Sure, they could lower the prices just enough that rich people could afford it, but there is a reason McDonalds makes more money than gourmet burger restaurants that charge a lot more.

SirEdward;n3541419 said:
... and a focusing on savings for healthcare, with much higher amount of money locked away for the rainy days, so less money circulating in the economy.
I don't consider that to be a bad thing. Sure, more money in the economy is good too, but it would be nice to see people live within their means, rather than plunging themselves into debt with reckless abandon.
 
TC;n3541476 said:
Unfortunately there isn't much you could do about it, without completely stifling innovation. But that is already a problem now, when all the money is in treatments, rather than cures. So long as insurance companies, or the government, is willing to foot the bill, there is absolutely no motivation to innovate better cheaper solutions and treatments.

The US system is far overpriced compared to the rest of the world. To get you a sense of proportions, the surgery I had, alone, would have costed something like 140k dollars in the US (not including the bed and the after-surgery care): it would have costed 20k Euro in Italy if done by a private clinic. The main reason is: in the US that is a market, and companies price their products to get the maximum profit. It happens here too, but the presence of State funded universal healthcare as an actor on the market who actually develops innovation and puts it to use generates a reduction in price.

By the way, I still got it for free (payed through taxes) and, but this was just pure luck, I was treated in one of the most qualified places in Italy for that kind of problem.

What I derive from that is that our system costs -a lot-, but it also grants -a lot- of return if properly managed. The US system, on the other hand, is clearly way overpriced and profit-driven, which is wrong when the goal is the health of the population, so of the major production source of a country. And that is without even taking into account human rights and the philosophy of why we do what we do.

If you acknowledge that they would have to reduce prices, then it stands to reason that it would extend to "effective" treatments and tests, as well as, drugs.

Yes, but I don't think this will get healthcare better for people; companies will be forced to reduce prices because people would have less money, but people will have less money nonetheless,so they will buy less. In the end, what companies will do is lower prices enough to get their business going, not to get people healthy.

Just like:

there is a reason McDonalds makes more money than gourmet burger restaurants that charge a lot more.

Eating at McDonald's on a regular basis -will- destroy your health and life, even if it is cheaper to eat there than in a restaurant with better food. But it's not that McDonald's is bad per se, or that its food is the devil (though it is junk food indeed), the point is that McDonald's has a goal, and the goal is profit, not giving people food which will help them in the long run. This makes all the difference.

Not that other restaurants are necessarily different, but you'll notice that the best places to eat are those where food is prepared with the first goal of giving people something good rather than something which increases profit. Yes, I know any place must be profitable to be able to survive, but the focus should not be on the profits, disregarding all the rest, rather on the people and on giving them something that will profit them too -in the long run-. This would profit the entire society, a goal which is far more efficient than maximizing the profit of the single players while dumping the costs onto someone else (because everyone is on the receiving end of some cost dumping, somewhere; what goes around comes around).

That is particularly true for healthcare. A healthy population is more valuable to a society than a small number of extremely profitable companies. Let there be as much health as possible while keeping the companies healthy enough to expand and innovate. Crush practices which increase profit far less than they damage health. In our example, crush the diffusion of sugar-filled beverages, salt added to stimulate thirst, added-sugars in food (and that is just to keep to our McDonald's example). After all, Burgers can be done in a healthy way, with better ingredients, and be better tasting that the ones we have now.

Of course, this will cost more, thus showing how many people are underpayed, whose who are now almost forced to eat at McDonald's because cooking their own food would be more expensive. But this is another topic.

I don't consider that to be a bad thing. Sure, more money in the economy is good too, but it would be nice to see people live within their means, rather than plunging themselves into debt with reckless abandon.

There would not be a real raise in people living within their means. For a start, the number of people who can't afford medical care will raise eating up from the number of those who can. Then, many people will save up but will face illnesses which they can now pay for with insurance, but they won't be able to pay for later on without. Considering a reduction in prices, I think the number of people who can't afford proper medical care will stay the same or raise, because I can't see a reduction in prices high enought to -raise- the amount of people getting into the system.

Why should this happen? More people = more costs = less profit. Companies will try to maximize profit, not healthcare coverage. Which is the point about having companies only looking at their own profit rather than considering also the profit of the society as a whole.

Plus, keep in mind that the push to "plunging themselves into debt with reckless abandon", which I think is a very effective way of describing it, is actually being fueled now by companies, who know psychology and play with people's mind everyday to push them into spending and buying, not into saving and managing.

Again, it is normal that they do, because they only look at their own profit, but it has consequences; and as long as just one company does it, there is not much of a problem. But as soon as all of them do it, the strength of the message grows, it combines with the power and the money they can put into advertising and repeating it, until it becomes a juggernaught which -will- indeed enter the minds of people and be effective (otherwise, they wouldn't bother in repeating it).

Unfortunately, when this message becomes effective, people -will- actually spend and buy more, even more than it is good for them, because the strongly-fueled push to spend will be poorly counteracted by the weak, internal and in no way supported by anyone, push to save.

There you go, people will put themselves into debt to buy sh*t they don't need. Again, the natural drive of companies to focus on their own profit alone, dumping the costs to someone else, will affect the entire society, by (in this example) destroying the possible savings of people and put them in a condition where they maybe can't even afford healthcare when it will be needed. Or even food which won't destroy their health.

It is a spiral. At the start, the idea that -personal- profit must be pursued even when it damages other people, the idea that personal profit is more important than the profit of the entire society. Which doesn't mean that you must die for the society (I hear reader's mind chanting "communism!!!!"), only that what you do should not have a more negative impact on other people combined than it has positive on you.
 
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