South Ossetia War

[argatoga]

Napoleon and Hitler made the same mistake of underestimating the Russians.

Well they tried invading Russia, and as a result had to deal with the elements there. Still though Russia has shown in the past that a lot of men can make up for fewer skilled/equipped ones.

I still see Russia becoming a super power, they have the resources and, now, a capitalistic system to exploit it. With strong ruthless men like Putin in charge Russia will develop quickly. Also from what I've heard of Russian politics Putin seems to be benefiting from the Good Czar myth so don't expect him to go away anytime soon.

We are once again entering a world of multiple super powers, we can make a hash of it like we did in the Cold War, or we can actually try to work together. If the Georgian population must suffer in the predominantly Russian provinces so be it, better than having two very powerful nuclear weapon welding powers screwing over the rest of the world due to paranoia bred by misunderstanding of each other.

 

[SuperStalin]

It's not misunderstanding... conflicts like these don't stem from misunderstanding.
That's just crap from the movies. Conflicts around the Caucasus are about pipelines, about Russia's access to the middle east.

As for the Russian conventional army being bad... well, let's just say that nobody would like to test that.

 

[jetsetter]

As for the Russian conventional army being bad... well, let's just say that nobody would like to test that.

They don't have the material for a substantial long term conflict. In addition their ability to get supplies to wherever the fighting would be is fairly weak.

 

[ViperVX]

They don't have the material for a substantial long term conflict. In addition their ability to get supplies to wherever the fighting would be is fairly weak.

Well only problem is here, atm our army is the best equipped not to invade smth with the actual soldiers, but to simply destroy anything in a particular region of any size, without using any for of Nukes.

Basicly Long range rockets, bombers, ballistic stuff, u can check Wiki, Russian's is the best.

The program of agressive development those kinds of weapons has started in early 70s, hasn't stopped since.

But you're right about supplies and stuff. It costs A LOT of money, US spends 10bil a month on their 1,5 wars, clearly Russia doesn't have that kind of money.

Back to the actualy topic:

I am against slaughtering ppl in any way, shape or form. What Russia did was bad, but what Georgian troops did was just pure evil, they deserved what they got. My view is all conflicts should be solved with politics, economics etc. In this case it was probably much cheaper just to wipe out Georgian military and declare those 2 regions independent.

Only thing that interests me atm, Georgia haven't listed or announced the number of losses/casualties, i assume it's a sizable amount.

About 2 AM that sunday, when it was almost over, i've seen news on one of our popular news portals, that our Army moved a MASSIVE tanks group into the center(ish) of Georgia to finish off what was left of 3-4 military bases after bombardment wipeout. News disappeared in about 5-10 mins. Then i guess they pulled back, and by 6am it was over.

 

[the Interceptor]

What Russia did was bad, but what Georgian troops did was just pure evil, they deserved what they got.

what did Georgian troops do that was so evil?

 

[ViperVX]

what did Georgian troops do that was so evil?

They attacked a few villages on the Ossetian side of the border, pretty much killed everyone, then moved on to attack the capital if you can call it, of Ossetia, killed another 15.000 civillians at least.

U may not believe me, i did not believe it when i saw it, that turned out to be true.

 

[the Interceptor]

But if the point of said attacks was to re-engage Ossetia with Georgia, why would they kill all those civilians?

 

[ViperVX]

But if the point of said attacks was to re-engage Ossetia with Georgia, why would they kill all those civilians?

Well if you read a bit of history, in 1991, the president of Georgia ordered the same attack on those regions, did practicly the same. That's when the treaty was signed between Georgia, Russia and those 2 regions for Russian army to keep peace in that region.

Since then those ppl WOULD NEVER EVER join back with Georgia, as u can understand all Georgians, being part Turkish part Russians are pretty proud ppl.

In 99 and 01 S. Osetia and it's neighbor Abhasia holded a public VOTE (and there are official records of that), with over 90% of votes for independency. So there's no way Georgia would get them back.

All Georgia basicly needed was the sea access, as those waters are a gold mine. a HUGE chunk of sea for industrial fishing, a nice port, existing mid-class resort, u name it.

 

[the Interceptor]

Encouraged by your statements, I did read some more on the 91-92 South Ossetia war. It's very hard to break down the single events to something that makes sense. I especially focused on why Georgia sent troops into South Ossetian territory. On Wikipedia, it reads like this:

On 20 September 1990, the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast declared independence as the South Ossetian Democratic Soviet Republic, appealing to Moscow to recognise it as an independent subject of the Soviet Union. When the election of the Georgian Supreme Council took place in October 1990, it was boycotted by the South Ossetians. On December 10, 1990, South Ossetia held its own elections, declared illegal by Georgia. A day later, Georgian Supreme Soviet canceled the results of the Ossetian elections and abolished South Ossetian autonomy.[1]
On December 11, 1990, several bloody incidents occurred in and around Tskhinvali. Georgian government declared a state of emergency in the districts of Tskhinvali and Java on December 12. Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched in the region to disarm Ossetian armed groups.


(...)


On the night of 5 January 1991, Georgian forces entered Tskhinvali. The Ossetian militants responded by firing at Georgian schools and houses in the city, while Georgians attacked Ossetian villages. The fighting in Tskhinvali first resulted in a divided town: An Ossetian-controlled western part and a Georgian-controlled eastern part. Towards the end of January, the Georgians withdrew to the hills around the city according to the Russian-mediated ceasefire.


(...)


The most intense period of war was in March and April 1991, after a period of relative calm in July and August, violence resumed in mid-September. Georgia imposed economic blockade on the rebel region: It disconnected electricity supplies to Tskhinvali and blocked the road by which the city received food and other products. The Ossetians blockaded Georgian villages and several atrocities occurred on both sides. The fighting left hundreds killed and wounded, many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.[1] Georgian forces sat in the hills around Tskhinvali and besieged the city. Other fighting took place around the city in the nearby villages and along the road to North Ossetia.

I can understand by now why South Ossetia and Abkhazia wouldn't return to Georgia. Yet, I always find a lot of statements on who did what and how many were killed wildly exaggerated. I see that there are several parties in open conflict here, and that the idea to join them was a battle already lost before it was fought. Still, I don't see the inhumanity you accuse Georgia of.

 

[ViperVX]

That pretty much covers it.

The fact of the matter is, Georgia has almost nothing without it's sea-border regions. Wine (very good wine i must say) and a Gas tube going from *stan countries via Georgia, that's about it (I am guessing i don't have to tell that most of what's in that tube goes to US). It's covered with mountains, only thing u could grow there is grapes, and animals for meat and dairy but on a very limited basis. Throughout USSR history, Georgian villagers (90% of Georgoan population) were basicly the poorest low/middle class of everyone living in the Soviet Union.

 

[the Interceptor]

Then where's the slaughter done by Georgian troops and ordered by the Georgian government?

 

[BerserkerCatSplat]

That's a poor analogy, but let's roll with it. I guess that means you support the Iraqi insurgency, right?

-5,000 points for blatant use of a strawman.

 

[ViperVX]

Then where's the slaughter done by Georgian troops and ordered by the Georgian government?

Well did u see how Osetian capital looks? Basicly destroyed, wiped out 75%, including schools and hospital. Every day of this "war" and a week after every day there was a funeral after funeral.
I am guessing inetrnational media does not show those segments, although i've seen footage of that on FOX news.

Also a fact, in the last 3 days of this "war", Abkhasian army (if you can call it army) started to smoke Georgian troops out of their positions near their borders.

 

[the Interceptor]

I'm confused. Are we talking about the latest war or the 91-92 war now?

 

[ViperVX]

post above was about the latest.

Back to 91, is 1000 dead not enough, although i am sure the actualy number could be X times as much.

 

[SuperStalin]

as u can understand all Georgians, being part Turkish part Russians are pretty proud ppl.

Correction needed here. Georgians aren't part Turkish part Russian,
they're just, well... Georgians.

I'm a bit of a freak for history, ethnology, anthropology and population genetics,
so basing this on everything I ever read, Georgians are basically indigenous to the area since prehistoric times. Millenia before any Russians or Turks even existed, let alone invaded the area.

It's not often that you see a people who have kept a continuity of their language and identity for such a long time.

You've probably at least all heard about Jason and the Argonauts, and the golden fleece... well, he found that golden fleece in Colchis which is an ancient state founded by ancient Georgians ( who call themselves Kartveleb, and a few other regional ethnonyms ).

Genetically, the Georgians are pretty much distinct from either Russians or Turks, and most other peoples. The haplogroups ( Y-chromosome markers )
of the Georgians are completely different to those common among Russians or Turks, or even other Caucasians.

The Abkhaz are a similarly ancient presence in the Caucasus.

The Ossetians are the most direct descendants of ancient Scythians, Sarmatians, Cimmerians and others of that family of ancient Aryans. ( no connection to those guys in prison with tattooed swastikas )

 

[Firecat]

-5,000 points for blatant use of a strawman.

We are discussing the conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Russia. All of a sudden i'm presented with a masked men/rapist analogy. My response was more than appropriate. I was showing that the analogy did not fit the discussion at hand...

So you can put down your textbook for now.

 

[the Interceptor]

I hardly watch news on tv, but I remember seeing pictures of a destroyed Tskhinvali. To be honest, I don't get why Georgia had to bomb the city first and then try to gain control over it, as most casualties would be civilian. That however is where it gets interesting:

The number of total civilian casualties in Tskhinvali remains unknown, as no official investigation took place and no independent third-party estimates have been reported. Russian officials asserted on August 9, that more than 2,000 civilians had died. The pre-war population being around 30,000.[15] However, based on the number of wounded being treated in the hospitals, this number may be inflated.[22] On August 14, South Ossetian separatists claimed, they have identified 200 corpses of South Ossetian civilians, saying that 500 are missing. At the same time Russian investigators said, they had identified a total of 60 civilians killed.[6]

Several journalists were reported to be among the casualties,[2] including the two, who were embedded with the ambushed Russian armoured column, in which General Khrulyov was wounded.[3]

Military losses are also unknown or unclear with the Russian claim of 64 Russian soldiers dead and 323 wounded, this number includes some pilots killed in the rest of Georgia.[23] Alexander Lomaia, secretary of Georgia's National Security Council stated that 200 Georgian soldiers were killed in the Battle of Tskhinvali and air raids on military bases in other parts of Georgia.[24] South Ossetian separatists claimed that "foreign mercenaries", including "blacks", were found among the dead Georgian soldiers, this had not been confirmed by Georgia.[25] Russians said they found more than 40 bodies of Georgian soldiers in the city.[6] South Ossetian military and militia casualties are unknown.

Right now, it is beyond me how Georgia was thinking they would be able to regain control over South Ossetia with such actions. But then again, I don't get how this whole region has always been involved in local armed battles. I think you have to grow up there to fully understand what's going on. I find a lot of the coverage I find to be very one-sided though, so the question rises whom to believe what.

We are discussing the conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Russia. All of a sudden i'm presented with a masked men/rapist analogy. My response was more than appropriate. I was showing that the analogy did not fit the discussion at hand...

Actually it did, you just didn't see where I was trying to go with it.

 

[jetsetter]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians killed more civilians in this recent conflict than the Georgians.

 

[SuperStalin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians killed more civilians in this recent conflict than the Georgians.

Yep. The Russians are evil, we already established that as axiom.