Looks like the GT-R isn't so great after all...

[MacGuffin]

Health warning: The following text contains traces of irony, which can have unexpected results on your mental stability, if you take them too serious!


That discussion about the subchallenged engine gives me a whole new idea.

As certain people repeatedly pointed out in their unique manner, German cars (especially the expensive ones!), seem to be more susceptible to faults in the USA, than here in Germany, while for example Jaguars last longer over there and are less faulty in, say, Texas, while they break in pieces over here in Bavaria all the time.

Assuming that these observations are based on facts and not only personal assumptions which result from a biased point of view, there are only three possible explanations:

1. It's the different climate
2. Cars built for the USA are just second-rate quality
3. Drivers treat the cars differently

Now, it can't be the climate, because all car makers thoroughly test their new cars in all climate zones, from Death Valley to the Polar Circle, with special emphasis on the USA, because that is where they make the biggest part of their sales.

And I also refuse to believe that they have two different production lines in Stuttgart: One for Europe, where they make the good ones, and one for the USA, where they make the bad ones.

So according to what was written above, it must be the fact that we are driving them differently here. Because we are allowed to drive them FAST - and that obviously makes all the difference.

That has to be the solution

And that explains why a Porsche breaks down when constantly doing only 65 mp/h, while a Jaguar doesn't. Because for the Jag doing 65 mp/h is its purpose. That's why the Jaguars here always break down (they're simply driven too fast), while Porsches don't, because they are being treated correctly - like greyhounds which can't be hold in kennels all the time but must run around.

There you see: Mystery solved :lol:

 

[Spectre]

I beg to differ on the "they test in all climates" theory. They may *test* in all climates, but that doesn't mean they listen to the test results. VW is known to have ignored frantic notes from their US testing facility about their defective tranny cooler system (the one with the leaky O-ring that allows coolant and transmission fluid to mix), for example. And it's also clear that certain other marques either didn't do *enough* testing in humid hot environments or didn't pay attention to the results - the European marques, usually, but Nissan's been caught out a few times too.

Also, what usually kills the Jags isn't driving fast, as there's still quite a few Jaguars in Germany, per the clubs, but *rust*, which is more prevalent in Europe and the north part of America than in the South and West of the US - which is where most of the survivors are.

 

[prizrak]

Now, it can't be the climate, because all car makers thoroughly test their new cars in all climate zones, from Death Valley to the Polar Circle, with special emphasis on the USA, because that is where they make the biggest part of their sales.

Europe has much less drastic differences between Summer and Winter than certain parts of the US (the Northeast for example). Letting the car sit in Death Valley and the North Pole for a few weeks and see if anything breaks is one thing. When the car goes from 6 months in Death Valley to 6 months in the North Pole and back for 3-5 years its a whole different thing.

And I also refuse to believe that they have two different production lines in Stuttgart: One for Europe, where they make the good ones, and one for the USA, where they make the bad ones.

US cars are of different spec than EU or JPN cars. There are different laws governing what cars should and should not have and what emissions are allowed. So yes there are two different lines for them. Here is a for instance, it seems like the 2004 Audi A4 has badly fitting doors. They are not very flush with the body and one of the doors is usually miss aligned on my car its the front passanger, I test drove a different car that had SAME exact misalligned door by the same exact amount but it was the driver door. Also both of the cars have a non operational passenger side rear fog light. These are just the cars I've driven but as there are quite a few A4s of the same model year I see doors not fitting right quite a bit.

They also have been having a lot of problems with interior paint on them, so much so that there is actually a DIY on Audizine on how to mix the right paint color to touch it up....

There is another factor that you forget, which is the amount of road time cars rack up. A former co-worker of mine used to live in Germany and he was telling me that a 20KM drive is considered long over there (feel free to confirm/deny) here I take 20 mile drives fairly often to visit a friend of mine in Queens (same city different borough).

Another factor that you have completely overlooked is that out of the big German 3 only Audis are still made in Germany and shipped over, the rest have local factories, so they are not exactly built the same.

 

[MacGuffin]

Europe has much less drastic differences between Summer and Winter than certain parts of the US (the Northeast for example). Letting the car sit in Death Valley and the North Pole for a few weeks and see if anything breaks is one thing. When the car goes from 6 months in Death Valley to 6 months in the North Pole and back for 3-5 years its a whole different thing.

Even so, carmakers should have figured out by now how to deal with that. It's not like they're selling cars in the U.S. since last year... I still refuse to believe that weather is a major factor. Maybe it has influence and maybe in some cases there have been isolated problems (which have been fixed by now, I'm quite sure) but it also influences all cars from all brands then.

US cars are of different spec than EU or JPN cars. There are different laws governing what cars should and should not have and what emissions are allowed. So yes there are two different lines for them.

Well, they are still made on the same production line. Each car is made individually,though, depending on the specs the customer wants. There may be differences in a few parts between Euro versions and U.S. versions but I doubt it is something major.

Here is a for instance, it seems like the 2004 Audi A4 has badly fitting doors. They are not very flush with the body and one of the doors is usually miss aligned on my car its the front passanger, I test drove a different car that had SAME exact misalligned door by the same exact amount but it was the driver door.

Can you show a photo of that? It's the first time I ever heard/read something like that.

Also both of the cars have a non operational passenger side rear fog light.

Well, twin rear foglights are not allowed here on new cars anymore, since the chances are high that they are mixed up with brake lights, which can result in accidents, when the driver behind does a panic brake. Maybe it does not work on your Audi, because it simply is not meant to be working?

They also have been having a lot of problems with interior paint on them, so much so that there is actually a DIY on Audizine on how to mix the right paint color to touch it up....

I remember you mentioning that (I suppose it was you at least). But as I mentiones earlier, those parts come from external suppliers and I'm sure the problem has been solved in later models. Problems with faulty parts happen all the time. You can only test so much before you bring a new car on sale. Each month several brands call back cars to the dealers, because they found a potentially dangerous fault. No car maker is spared from that.

Last month such callbacks were done here by Cadillac (faulty rear axle differentials), Honda (cooling water leaks), Kia (possible damage of the fuel injection), Nissan (faulty hazard warning lights when a trailer is connected), Opel (Missing attachment plate on the engine block & leaky sealing ring at the rear axle) and Suzuki (possible leak in fuel pipe).

There is another factor that you forget, which is the amount of road time cars rack up. A former co-worker of mine used to live in Germany and he was telling me that a 20KM drive is considered long over there (feel free to confirm/deny) here I take 20 mile drives fairly often to visit a friend of mine in Queens (same city different borough).

20.000 - 40.000 km a year is the normal mileage for privately owned cars here. Company and official cars do much more of course, 80.000 km a year is not uncommon with them.

Another factor that you have completely overlooked is that out of the big German 3 only Audis are still made in Germany and shipped over, the rest have local factories, so they are not exactly built the same.

Well, first of all there are 4 big Germans: Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, BMW. And correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, Mercedes only makes the ML, R and GL Class in Tuscaloosa, and BMW only the Z4, X5 and X6 in Spartanburg. Both are only small fractions of what the companies are offering and they are also not high volume models.

Anyway, the bottom line is that each and every carmaker has problems at first, when a new car is introduced. Some faults can be fixed fast and quickly without much publicity, other problems get headlines. That's how it always was and always will be, when there has to be a balance between cost effectiveness and quality.

And such car makers who introduce new technologies first, are very likely to have more problems than others. That is natural. By the time others catch up, reliability is not an issue anymore. So it's easy for them to say "Hey, our cars are more reliable".

But in the end, no one can predict how something new works in the long term when you sell it by the hundred thousands. It's always partly a game of chance.

 

[prizrak]

Even so, carmakers should have figured out by now how to deal with that. It's not like they're selling cars in the U.S. since last year... I still refuse to believe that weather is a major factor. Maybe it has influence and maybe in some cases there have been isolated problems (which have been fixed by now, I'm quite sure) but it also influences all cars from all brands then.

Well, they are still made on the same production line. Each car is made individually,though, depending on the specs the customer wants. There may be differences in a few parts between Euro versions and U.S. versions but I doubt it is something major.

If such was the case then Benz, BMW and VAG wouldn't show up very close to the bottom of reliability surveys very consistently. Audi is the most reliable of all the surveys I have seen and even then its around the middle. I have no idea what is done to those cars to make them US ready but the fact remains that these cars are not as reliable here as they seem to be on the other side of the pond.

Can you show a photo of that? It's the first time I ever heard/read something like that.

Pic to come, can't take it on the other car anymore since its not mine (was test driving one at a dealer) but I will show on mine.

Well, twin rear foglights are not allowed here on new cars anymore, since the chances are high that they are mixed up with brake lights, which can result in accidents, when the driver behind does a panic brake. Maybe it does not work on your Audi, because it simply is not meant to be working?

That's a possibility I will thumb through the manual, there is a light bulb hook up in the other light though....

I remember you mentioning that (I suppose it was you at least). But as I mentiones earlier, those parts come from external suppliers and I'm sure the problem has been solved in later models. Problems with faulty parts happen all the time. You can only test so much before you bring a new car on sale. Each month several brands call back cars to the dealers, because they found a potentially dangerous fault. No car maker is spared from that.

Yep it was me, replaced the whole damn button since (ESP button wore off). When talking to the guys at the parts dept they told me on the B5 models the whole trim would come off, not sure about B7's according to what I have read on it it seems that it can't deal well with cleaners in hot weather.

20.000 - 40.000 km a year is the normal mileage for privately owned cars here. Company and official cars do much more of course, 80.000 km a year is not uncommon with them.

That looks about the same, I do closer to 20 myself but I don't drive to work.

Well, first of all there are 4 big Germans: Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, BMW.

VW and Audi are part of the same company, which is why I consider them the big 3.

And correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, Mercedes only makes the ML, R and GL Class in Tuscaloosa, and BMW only the Z4, X5 and X6 in Spartanburg. Both are only small fractions of what the companies are offering and they are also not high volume models.

I'm not sure someone with more info on the subject should chime in. X5 is not a small seller by any means though, I seen them around as much as the 3 series these days.

 

[un-dee]

And I also refuse to believe that they have two different production lines in Stuttgart: One for Europe, where they make the good ones, and one for the USA, where they make the bad ones.

Well I don't know for car manufacturers, but most industrial goods have different tolerance classes for different markets, for example I worked at a glass ceramics plant and all units which were outside german tolerances were simply shipped to the US, where the customers don't demand that high quality for this certain product.

 

[MacGuffin]

Well I don't know for car manufacturers, but most industrial goods have different tolerance classes for different markets, for example I worked at a glass ceramics plant and all units which were outside german tolerances were simply shipped to the US, where the customers don't demand that high quality for this certain product.

Well, maybe that's the explanation for it, since they are used to much worse things from their UAW plants over there :lol:

Conspiracy theory anyone?

VW and Audi are part of the same company, which is why I consider them the big 3.

They are under the same holding, yes, but still are independent car makers, with separate development departments. Otherwise they wouldn't have so many competing models.

Porsche, however, is trying to gain more influence on Audi's production line now, since the R8 and especially the Q7 are direct competitors to Porsche.

 

[prizrak]

They are under the same holding, yes, but still are independent car makers, with separate development departments. Otherwise they wouldn't have so many competing models.

Considering that Passat, Jetta, Golf, Beetle and A4 are available with the same exact engine...... Not to mention that an 04 Passat looks about as different from an A4 as the Crown Vic does from a Mercury Grand Marquis. There is more than enough technology sharing going on between VW and Audi that I really don't consider them two different companies.

Here is the pic of my misaligned door. Door is opened just enough to not rest on the lock.

NOTE: No accidents happened to the car (at least nothing on carfax) and no indication of one as far as the frame goes.

 

[MacGuffin]

Have you made a research on the internet to see if that is a well-known fault or not? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything.

To be honest, that does not look like a fault by Audi but more like a result of some kind of damage.

 

[KaJuN]

You wouldn't take a Tv back to the retailer after you backed over it with your car and expect a free replacement would you?

Well no, but my TV doesn't have a 'Back over with car' button that's easily pressed. And the advertisements didn't claim I would get the best picture quality only if I did back over it with my car.

 

[Ezbok58a]

The Launch Control that everyone is bitching about is only supposed to be used in close circuits... IE Race tracks or Drag Strips...

Don't use it in one of those locations then you are doing nothing but abusing the car...

Abuse=Void Warranty...

What is so hard for you guys to understand?

Every single Manufacturer does it, why do you have a problem with this one?

 

[TC]

I would think that using the LC on a high traction race track would be more stressful on the transmission then using it on shitty public roads.

The only thing that bothers me about this is that Nissan is basically saying the GT-R dual clutch transmission only has a lifespan of 20 launches. If that's the case, so be it.

 

[bartboy9891]

I would think that using the LC on a high traction race track would be more stressful on the transmission then using it on shitty public roads.

The only thing that bothers me about this is that Nissan is basically saying the GT-R dual clutch transmission only has a lifespan of 20 launches. If that's the case, so be it.

As far as I know, there's no word on how long the transmission lasts when subjected to launches without LC.
But as this thread shows, the car can go similarly quick even without the LC engaged. And as the scintillating discussion about transmission fluid a few pages ago concluded, using the LC is probably causing significantly more stress on the transmission than launches without LC. The only real problem is that maybe Nissan wasn't anticipating that people would be using the LC more than once in a blue moon.

 

[teletubby-warrior]

https://pic.armedcats.net/a/an/anonymous/2008/10/23/warranty_000.jpg

That's all I have to contribute.

 

[the Interceptor]

While I don't see much fault at Nissan here other than not being very clever at putting LC on the car this way, I see the main problem with people in reviews (even Nissan people!) and dealers telling their customers that you can use LC all day, which is a clear violation of the warranty.

About the lifespan of a gearbox, we don't know. The fact that the gearbox of that GT-R owner went a few days after the last launch and under normal driving conditions says to me that it was the tranny fluid which should have been changed. If you do that regularly, maybe the gearbox will have a perfectly normal lifespan.

Also:
[youtube]eJRGY__F2e8[/youtube]

 

[TC]

I wonder what the normal trans fluid life on the GT-R is. Replacing clutch fluid after heavy use is common, but most transmission fluid is synthetic and lasts at least 80,000 miles.

 

[the Interceptor]

I think it's the clutch fluid that needs to be changed. Since the clutch and the transmission are put together in a double clutch gearbox, there maybe only is one fluid.

 

[MacGuffin]

The only real problem is that maybe Nissan wasn't anticipating that people would be using the LC more than once in a blue moon.

I cannot imagine they are so breathtakingly naive...

 

[prizrak]

Have you made a research on the internet to see if that is a well-known fault or not? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything.

To be honest, that does not look like a fault by Audi but more like a result of some kind of damage.

Its not damaged I just need to readjust the bolts, haven't had the time/will yet. The weird thing is that I drove another Audi of the same year and model with the same problem only on the driver's side, otherwise I'd think nothing of it.
[/offtopic]

There are two issues as I see it:
1) Use of an undocumented feature - as anyone will tell you if you go through the manual and don't find any description of a feature you know to exist you cannot expect any support from the company. It is true for pretty much everything under the moon cars are no exclusion.

2) Not having any warnings in the manual - if you equip something with a specific feature it should be documented, if such a feature may be harmful to the product it should have a warning. Common sense is all fine and good but it rarely holds up in court and thats when a manual with a nice warning of DON"T FUCKING DO IT! comes into play.

Nissan does not void warranty on track cars, however you are supposed to take it to them for servicing after each track day. This is most likely the main issue here, the owner was driving his car as he would on a race track but he did not take it to Nissan for servicing as he would have to to keep his warranty.

 

[Cellos88GT]

https://pic.armedcats.net/a/an/anonymous/2008/10/23/warranty_000.jpg

That's all I have to contribute.

:lol: