General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

  1. Tried to cover it up.

Cover what up? Nobody has even been able to reproduce the fault.

Design flaws happen

What is the flaw?

Thanks for proving my point, you see I accidentally mistook this thread for a logical discussion about a product fault. It's all about the conspiracy, toyota is working with al qaida to kill americans, the truth is out there. Carry on...
 
Last edited:
That incident with the ES that killed 4 people due to double-stacked floormats was quite tragic (although to give the benefit of doubt, we cannot say with absolute certainty that the driver did not attempt to shift into neutral or put on the brakes).

Quadrax said:
The problem with this situation (and frankly this thread) is that despite cars being an extremely common and frequently used machine, most people haven't a clue how they work.

This is unfortunately quite true. Especially evident when the Secretary of Transportation (whom you'd think would know a thing or two about cars) had called for Toyota owners to stop driving their cars :lol:
 
Last edited:
Interesting in that ABC clip, the Avalon's brakes couldn't stop the car, then a Camry, G37 and a 500+hp mustang all could stop their call at WOT at 70mph...are the Avalon brakes really that shitty?
 
Last edited:
To lighten the discussion a bit, at the 2010 Chicago auto show Toyota was giving away posters....what car poster would it be ? LFA ? FT-86 ? FT-CH ?

No, here it is...:bangin:



I really want to see the person who would like to have it on his bedroom wall.
 
Actually, Toyota's reputation will drop even more while ABC will gain huge ratings for their "exclusive investigation" that reveals this "stunning flaw" with the Toyota electronics. So you better stay tuned to ABC for more of these insightful news pieces.

Unfortunately, it is the American public who will suffer the most from this ordeal. The fear mongering generated by the mass media frenzy, as well as huge loss to the American economy due to a massive hit on Toyota operations which no doubt will affect hundreds of domestic suppliers and businesses.

If Toyota manages (this is remote i know...) to twist it in their favor, they could possibly swing this the other way. A shit ton of people hate the media..maybe even more than they do Toyota ATM.

To lighten the discussion a bit, at the 2010 Chicago auto show Toyota was giving away posters....what car poster would it be ? LFA ? FT-86 ? FT-CH ?

No, here it is...:bangin:



I really want to see the person who would like to have it on his bedroom wall.

I had a '95 Avalon poster on my wall back in elementary school....:|














*not :lmao:
 
Fly by wire sounds way less cool than the name implies. Give me a cable any day.
 
Something I don't think I'd mentioned yet. Jaguar's been using drive-by-wire throttles on their V8s since 1997. They've never had a problem like this - so that must mean that Jaguar has better engineers than Toyota, a scary thought. A Toyota Camry is now less reliable and less safe than a 12 year old British car. :p

Anyway - Quadrax, I wouldn't be too concerned with the ABC story other than as perhaps pointing the way to a potential cause, one that's worth investigating - perhaps there is another device on the CANBUS networks in those cars that's doing something similar to what this apparatus does? It's worth looking at.

I would, however, be far more concerned with the very much reproducible Prius cruise control bug that causes unintended acceleration, reported upthread. Apparently it can be reproduced at any time with any similar Prius.
 
Not to defend Toyota, but the NHTSA will have to explain why after five years of complaints they did nothing about the Chevy Cobalt's steering.

Cobalt Complaints Outnumber Corolla Complaints

Total complaints about steering on the Cobalt covering the 2005 to 2010 model years total 1,157. Total complaints about steering on the Corolla covering the same model-year period total 84.

The bulk of the Cobalt complaints occurred on the 2005 and 2006 model. General Motors introduced the Chevrolet Cobalt in the 2005 model year, equipping it with Electronic Power Steering (EPS). It would appear GM recognized problems with the steering because changes obviously were made after the Cobalt's introduction. Steering complaints gradually tapered off over the following model years to the point that none had been filed on the 2010 version as of Feb. 1.

It was early February - at the height of the media frenzy surrounding Toyota's multiple recalls -- that NHTSA opened its official investigation of the Cobalt - even though the first hefty batch of complaints were filed on the 2005 models.

Customer complaints about Toyota's sticky gas pedals were occurring on 2007 models, prompting critics to charge NHTSA and Toyota with foot-dragging on fixing the problem.

As for the Corolla, NHTSA received only one steering complaint per model year in 2005, 2006 and 2007; two on the 2008 model. The number jumped to 64 on 2009 version. Another 15 complaints have been filed on the 2010 model as of Feb. 3.

Cobalt More Serious Complaints

Edmunds.com's reading of the steering complaints on both vehicles reveal the complaints about the Cobalt's steering are far more serious and more dangerous than are the complaints about the Corolla's steering.

Almost all Cobalt drivers filing NHTSA complaints report they could not steer the vehicle. One complaint described an accident involving a family riding in their 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt when the power steering failed and the car ran off the road onto the median, causing a head injury to a child onboard. Other owners report they have some near-misses.

A Cobalt owner who makes a living delivering Chinese food and pizza reports that his steering typically fails 10 times over the course of a three-hour shift, requiring the shut off and re-start of the vehicle. A steering repair has been quoted at $2,000 - typical of what other Cobalt owners said in their reports -- and unaffordable on a delivery person's wage, notes the customer. "I'm truly scared that I'll end up dead or severely inured as long as this problem persists."

A few examples from NHTSA complaints on the Chevrolet Cobalt, which shares its underpinnings with the Pontiac G5:

"Power steering motor failure, nearly caused a crash because I could not turn the vehicle."

"The power steering goes out at random intervals on my 2006 Chevy Cobalt. This has nearly led to several accidents."

"I was driving on the highway and my power steering went out. I had no control of the wheel and felt my life was in danger. So I pulled on the side of the road and cut the car off and the problem went away for a minute and came back within 5 min. Can you please help me!!!!"

"I was almost involved in a head on collision due to the power steering failure of my 2007 Chevrolet Cobalt."

Dan Edmunds, director of vehicle testing for Edmunds.com who has read every complaint, suggests the Cobalt problem likely is a failure of the Electronic Power Steering system. In some cases, the problem is resolved when the driver turns off the car and restarts it. But in some cases, the failure affects other vehicle systems, including the throttle and the anti-lock brakes.

Cobalt owners report they have had computer chips replaced and tire pressures checked to no avail. Some have been told the entire steering mechanism needs to be replaced, at their expense and to the tune of a couple thousand dollars.

Of the 84 complaints about the Corolla's steering, three reported loss of steering control. No less unsettling, the typical complaint describes the Corolla's steering problem - on the 2009 model in particular - as "pulling" in one direction or the other from center, "veering" or "wandering" from a straight line at highway speeds. Some specific comments include:

"Above 55 mph the car likes to wander all over the highway."

Corolla owners say they, too, have taken their vehicles to dealerships. In some cases, minor adjustments were made that didn't necessarily fix the problem; in other cases, technicians said they found no problem.

Both Cases Result in Unhappy Customers

In the case of both the Cobalt and Corolla, customers are unhappy, leading some to ask in their complaints filed with NHTSA such things as: "Why isn't there a recall?" "How many people have to be seriously injured before this issue is resolved through a recall?

Source: http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/nhtsa-on-the-hot-seat-what-is-standard-operating-procedure.html#more
 
Last edited:
There are some people who drive pickup trucks for no reason at all other than they want to drive a pickup truck.... then eventually come to their senses.

It really is nice to just throw shit in the back of a truck. Furniture, engine blocks, toolboxes, engine hoists, guitar amps, you name it. Just chuck it in the back and no worries.

Edit: Wow, this thread moved quick... I didnt realize that that many posts could have passed.

Regardless, trucks have their uses. I'd rather drive a car though.
 
Cover what up? Nobody has even been able to reproduce the fault.



What is the flaw?

Thanks for proving my point, you see I accidentally mistook this thread for a logical discussion about a product fault. It's all about the conspiracy, toyota is working with al qaida to kill americans, the truth is out there. Carry on...

:rolleyes:

Intermittent failure is still failure. I'm not saying anything about any other car companies (I'm looking at you, GM), but this is a big deal for a couple of reasons, first is the type of failure. Americans, and I think people in general, are naturally more concerned over things like unintended acceleration because the car takes over. Things like airbag recalls or power steering failures have a different emotional effect. Secondly, most people don't understand how cars work at all, they push the pedal, magic happens and the car moves. With more and more computer systems being used in automobiles it increases the "witchcraft" level since most people don't understand computers either.

The big one though is Toyota's reputation. Everyone knows about the Ford-Firestone recalls, and the Pinto, We sort of expect this kind of thing from American companies for some reason. Toyota has built an empire on this distrust by being the safe and reliable alternative. Unlike the Firestone or Pinto recalls that only affected one model of a company, this has affected most of Toyota's lineup, the list of cars not on the recall is shorter than the recall list. If this was just the Camry or just the Corolla I don't think we would be seeing the same level of concern.

Finally, as for the design flaw issue. I think we can put to rest that there is a design flaw, Toyota has said as much (finally). Giving them the benefit of the doubt here, let's say that there is no electronics issue and the pedal shims, floor mat ties, and reshaped pedals will fix the issue. That still leaves the glaring issue of why Toyota continued to make and sell cars it knew were having problems, why their initial "fix" was to replace one defective part (pedal) with another one that would fail, and why it took the NHTSA flying to Japan to get them to do anything about it.

When Ford faced the devastating Firestone recall, they had the CEO out in front of a camera faster than you could say "Class Action." They worked the crisis, took responsibility and tried like hell to make it right. Ford apologized for the problems caused by the under-inflation issues, and it didn't take a bunch of NHTSA personnel flying to Detroit to make it happen. As a result, the Ford-Firestone recall has not had any long-term affect on Ford sales and I have yet to meet anyone who feel that Ford didn't work the problem in a timely and acceptable manner.

The impression right now about Toyota is that they have tried to ignore the problem, hide the problem and refuse to face the problem until forced to. Once they did face the problem, the continued to sell potentially defective recalled vehicles and continued to produce defective vehicles without a fix - which is in violation of federal law.

So, even in a best-case-scenario for Toyota they still appear guilty of, at best, negligence or at worst, gross malfeasance.
 
Americans, and I think people in general, are naturally more concerned over things like unintended acceleration because the car takes over. Things like airbag recalls or power steering failures have a different emotional effect. Secondly, most people don't understand how cars work at all, they push the pedal, magic happens and the car moves. With more and more computer systems being used in automobiles it increases the "witchcraft" level since most people don't understand computers either.

True. The average American/people are quite idiotic. Which explains the huge amount of paranoia and fear over Toyota vehicles...as if if you drive a Toyota you are now at greatly increased risk of your car going wildly out of control. Over 20,000 people were killed in Toyota cars over the past decade. 99.99% was due to...driver behavior/error. Around 20 of those deaths are allegedly linked to gas pedal issues and "unintended acceleration." Now I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate this further nor am I a Toyota apologist for the shady crap they've pulled. But we seem to forget that maybe, just maybe user error is likely a factor.

This seems much like what happened to Audi in the 80s, where there was huge media frenzy, and reports of carnage and death and huge lawsuits left and right against Audi, and this almost forced Audi out of the US market due to severe hit on their rep and sales for many years afterwards. In the end all of the claimed unintended acceleration crashes associated with the Audi cars, as investigated by the NHTSA, were due to pedal misapplication...that's right the drivers were so stupid that they thought they were stepping on the brakes when they were actually stepping on the gas.

Toyota's mishap seems to have been sparked by that incident where 4 people were killed in a ES 350 due to trapped gas pedal due to idiot dealer placing RX all-weather floormat ontop of the regular carpet floormat. And just like with Audi, after the initial story, tons of people came out of the woodwork claiming that their car were also going out of control.

Of course I'm not saying that Toyota cars are perfect or that there is absolutely nothing wrong with their ECU/dbw/pedal/floormat/etc./etc.
 
As a result, the Ford-Firestone recall has not had any long-term affect on Ford sales and I have yet to meet anyone who feel that Ford didn't work the problem in a timely and acceptable manner.

The lawsuits that resulted forced Ford to postpone new car development for years. It was devastating enough that they had to reorganize (before the fuel crisis and recession), Though as a result they were able to get their shit together before the two of these and are now on the road to recovery.
 
I certainly agree that user error is likely a contributing factor,however, Toyota has admitted to defective pedals and there have been several wrecks in which no floor mats were installed in the vehicle that crashed.

Could a well-trained driver with a clear head prevent a vehicle with a stuck pedal from crashing? Yes. But most drivers panic and don't think clearly when the vehicle stops responding to inputs. I know that I've had a stuck throttle cable on a motorcycle before, I just pulled in the clutch and then fixed the problem.

There seems to be an assumption that all drivers on the road have similar ability and reaction times, and this just isn't the case. Young drivers are shown to have much quicker reaction times than middle-aged or older drivers, but young drivers don't have the same experience. Some people don't have an intuitive knowledge of cars, others have abilities that border on mechanical empathy. The fact of the matter is that in today's world we design systems to account for human nature and human error as much as possible. The machines now adapt to the people rather than the people to the machines, with that new expectation comes certain dangers - namely that the machines will protect us from ourselves. When they don't, or when the human has to protect him/her self from the machine, we see that as a fault.
 
Fly by wire sounds way less cool than the name implies. Give me a cable any day.

But cables can bind or snap. I had the clutch cable on my first motorcycle snap at 40 mph. Thankfully, it was a 250cc, so I could shift (clunkily) by just rolling off the throttle and coasted until I got back into town and could call for a tow...but still, cables are far from infallable.
 
The fact of the matter is that in today's world we design systems to account for human nature and human error as much as possible. The machines now adapt to the people rather than the people to the machines, with that new expectation comes certain dangers - namely that the machines will protect us from ourselves. When they don't, or when the human has to protect him/her self from the machine, we see that as a fault.

Well said. There was a time when cars didn't have seatbelts or airbags or traction control system or brake override or crumple zones or tons of other safety systems.

While that's good in the sense that we are producing things that are safer and attempt to protect the end-user in case something does happen, the down side, it seems, is that the complexity and quantity of these safety systems will only grow more and more in the future as we try to predict all kinds of situations where the people can get hurt and we design systems to reduce that. Toyota just announced their effort to install brake override systems on more models, and obviously people are now asking: why wasn't this in place already? Why didn't they think of this when they started to use DBW systems?

A better question would be...why didn't they think of it when they decided to put the brake and gas pedal right next to each other? isn't it obvious that someone could panic or something could happen where both pedals are depressed and obviously you want to have the brake override the accelerator function!

Einstein was right, human stupidity is infinite. There is no way to predict what idiotic behavior the average driver will engage in and so we can only sit and wait and design systems as issues come up. In 10 years we will probably expect all cars to come with lane-departure warnings and laser/radar guided collision warning systems and whatnot.
 
Last edited:
Just saw one of those class-action notification adverts.

This is going to get way uglier before it gets better. We still have all the civil litigation to face.
 
Oh yeah. The repercussion will be for many, many years to come.

Here's an interesting read about what happened to Audi after their rep was destroyed similar to whats happening right now and how this parallels today and what we may see happen to Toyota in the future:

Volkswagen AG?s Audi luxury brand spent 15 years rebuilding U.S. sales after sudden-acceleration incidents in the 1980s almost wiped out demand, a possible sign of the difficult times Toyota Motor Corp. faces.

Audi?s U.S. deliveries plunged 83 percent by 1991 from their peak in 1985 following recalls of the German automaker?s 5000 sedan. A class-action lawsuit in 1987 by Audi owners seeking compensation is still being fought.

Audi was then selling no more than 75,000 cars a year in the U.S. and was chipping away at the market for higher-priced models. Last year, Toyota, the world?s largest automaker, sold 17 percent of all cars in the U.S. The Japanese manufacturer?s recall of almost 8 million vehicles, including 5.6 million in the U.S., to fix defects that cause sudden acceleration has prompted the U.S. government to probe the cause.

?There are very strong parallels between the Audi incident and Toyota,? said John Wolkonowicz, an analyst at IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Massachusetts, who worked on product- development analysis for Ford Motor Co. at the time of the Audi recalls. ?I?m convinced this whole mess can take longer than seven years to overcome. It might well have a generational impact.?

The Toyota recall led to a suspension of U.S. sales and production of eight models. Sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles has been linked to 19 deaths in the last decade, according to Henry Waxman, the U.S. House of Representatives? Energy and Commerce Committee chairman.



Shim Fixes

Toyota?s U.S. sales in January fell 16 percent to 98,796, the lowest monthly total in 11 years. The Toyota City, Japan- based carmaker said this week it will fix the defect by having dealers install shims in accelerators.

The Audi model in the 1980s recall was linked to six deaths and 700 accidents, according to Washington-based Center for Auto Safety, a group co-founded by consumer activist Ralph Nader. The Audi 5000?s sales drop accelerated after a 1986 report on CBS Corp.?s 60 Minutes television news program. The segment was later criticized by business groups for use of unidentified simulations and staged events.



U.S. Sales

Audi?s U.S. sales in the 1980s peaked at 74,061 in 1985, then dropped to 12,283 in 1991, staying at about that level for the next three years, according to company data. Deliveries topped the 1985 number only in 2000, when Audi sold 80,372 cars. Audi?s sales in China, where the VW unit is the top premium- brand seller, more than doubled in January to 16,798 cars and sport-utility vehicles, the company said today. Its deliveries in the U.S. in 2009 totaled 82,716 vehicles.

The recovery in the U.S. was partly helped by a 1994 turnaround strategy, which included the new A4 and A8 models and a reorganization of distribution networks, said Audi spokesman Juergen de Graeve.

?You can?t restore image or reputation overnight,? de Graeve said in an interview. ?We?re talking about a process here that was stretching over many years. Even if it were found out later that the claims were unjustified, the damage was already done.?

Toyota expects sales to drop by about 100,000 cars and revenue to decline by as much as 80 billion yen ($880 million) this fiscal year ending in March because of the recall, Senior Managing Director Takahiko Ijichi said today.

?We are doing everything we can to regain our customers? trust,? Ijichi told reporters in Tokyo.



?Lasting Damage?

Toyota?s situation ?is a bit different? to Audi?s, said Garel Rhys, who heads the University of Cardiff?s automotive industry research center. ?Audi was pushing itself as an up- market brand while Toyota is a huge player and defending its quality-brand image. Toyota has a huge image to lose in the U.S. The potential for lasting damage to their image is enormous.?

Toyota faces at least 23 lawsuits in the U.S. and Canada seeking class action status, including 13 that allege defects in the electronic throttle system. At least eight other lawsuits have been filed by customers or their families alleging deaths and injuries.



1987 Lawsuit

A class-action lawsuit filed in 1987 by Audi 5000-model owners seeking compensation is being contested in county court in Chicago after appeals at the Illinois state and U.S. federal levels. About 7,500 plaintiffs are involved, Robert Lisco, a Chicago-based lawyer representing the car buyers, said.

?I don?t think Toyota will recover from this,? said Juergen Pieper, a Frankfurt-based analyst at Bankhaus Metzler. ?They used to have an edge thanks to quality, but surely that?s been irrevocably shattered now. The impact of this catastrophe on their pricing power and sales will be enormous.?

The Audi 5000 recalls took place from 1982 to 1987, with the first fix aimed at adjusting the distance between the brake and accelerator pedal on automatic-transmission versions, the Rehoboth, Massachusetts-based Safety Research & Strategies said in a June report on Toyota incidents. The final repairs, of 250,000 cars dating back to 1978, added a device requiring the driver to press the brake pedal before shifting out of park, the consumer advocacy group said.

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration recommended two of the Audi 5000 recalls, according to an NHTSA document on the Center for Auto Safety?s Web site.

Mitsubishi Motors Corp. had one of the auto industry?s largest recalls prior to Toyota, taking back more than 2 million vehicles to repair defects in 2000 and 2001. That pushed the Tokyo-based automaker to the brink of bankruptcy.

How quickly Toyota will recover depends on how long the carmaker takes to respond, said Anil Valsan, global director of automotive research at Frost & Sullivan in London.

The company?s reaction ?has been pretty poor over the past few weeks,? he said. ?If they can do this quickly and fix it this fiscal year there will still be an impact on sales, but they have an opportunity to at least sustain their position.?
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ay-mean-lost-generation-for-toyota-sales.html
 
See, I'm not concerned so much about the sticking pedal, but Toyota's really screwing up the recall badly. I still have not gotten anything from Toyota telling me when my car is to be fixed. It's been a month so far. I'm not worried, but I'm quite annoyed, since this is a massive recall and their communication has been terrible. I'm not suddenly afraid of my Toyota, but I'm not going to be buying another just because they've handled this in such a poor way.
 
See, I'm not concerned so much about the sticking pedal, but Toyota's really screwing up the recall badly. I still have not gotten anything from Toyota telling me when my car is to be fixed. It's been a month so far. I'm not worried, but I'm quite annoyed, since this is a massive recall and their communication has been terrible. I'm not suddenly afraid of my Toyota, but I'm not going to be buying another just because they've handled this in such a poor way.

No letter or anything? That's a bit odd as you've got a very new car.

Otherwise have you checked the Toyota website? Looks like you can enter your VIN to see if your car is involved in a recall: http://www.toyota.com/recall/floormat-pedal.html

While it's part of Toyota's responsibility to get the word out as much as possible (which is quite good with all this huge media frenzy) I think any prudent person who owns a Toyota and isn't living under a rock should also make it a personal responsibility to learn what they can do to fix the problems through the internet and maybe visit a local dealer.

If Honda issued a huge recall I'm not gonna wait until a letter arrives in my mailbox to do something about and then complain that the communication was horrible (not implying that you did that, just as an example.)
 
Last edited:
Well, the main difference between the Audi problem, as I recall it, and the Toyota problem, is that the Toyota problems seems to span worldwide markets, while people here only shook their heads about the "stupid Americans" during the Audi affair.

They started to shake their heads here, too, when the Toyota problems started (and I admit at first I was one of them) but obviously unwanted acceleration problems also happened here, too, and Toyota Germany was informed about it at least since 2007.

Nevertheless the whole problem hasn't produced any headlines here yet -- only some minor articles appeared in car magazines and the tabloids are completely quiet so far. I suppose there still is a lot of respect towards Toyota and a lot of disbelief about the whole affair: "How could the model child of the car industry fall so deep and is it really that bad or just exaggerated by the lawsuit-happy Americans?"

However, I've been thinking about the main difference between Toyotas sold in the USA and Toyotas sold here. And I think the main difference is, that here the small cars dominate and that the vast majority is sold with a manual gearbox. The unwanted acceleration problem is much less critical, when you can simply step on the clutch to separate the engine from the wheels.

So maybe the "unwanted accleration" is merely an "unwanted reving" problem here and that's why it hasn't had much attention so far.

Just a theory, though...
 
Last edited:
Top