General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

If your assumption is true, it could mean that in the long run the Americans could be stuck with shitty cars, kinda like... I dunno know... they were before the Japanese came? :think:
 
If your assumption is true, it could mean that in the long run the Americans could be stuck with shitty cars, kinda like... I dunno know... they were before the Japanese came? :think:

Well, you Germans may have a problem of your own - you better pray that they never find a similarly bad problem with all those Sensotronic (brake by wire) Merc E-classes they shipped...
 
Dunno if it's been posted already (searched the forums & thread for it, nothing showed up), but this was rather hilarious:

http://toyotasimulator.com/

:lol:

edit: Looks like it was posted a couple of days ago in another thread. Well, I guess it's funny enough to be posted again :p
 
Last edited:
Well, you Germans may have a problem of your own - you better pray that they never find a similarly bad problem with all those Sensotronic (brake by wire) Merc E-classes they shipped...

Well, while I won't exclude the possibility of that, I'm quite convinced that the handling of the problem would be a lot better, faster, customer-friendlier and most importantly sustainable.

Mercedes already went through their own recall disaster with the "elk test" failure of the A-Class. As did Audi with the instability of the TT at high speeds, btw.
Or Renault with the airbag explosions in the Kangoo. Or VW with the problem of parts of the front suspension going kaputt in Passats. Or BMW with the steering wheel locking in place in the 5-series while driving.

The problems with the Toyota recalls obviously lie within the way the company is lead and the Japanese mentality, which somehow seems to rule out failure or rather admitting it, when it becomes obvious.

There is no way to prevent future recalls or technical problems. I even say that there will be fatalities again because of such things. Cars are a much too complex construct to rule that out. And most people understand that.

It's just a matter of how the problem is handled by the carmaker. And the first rule of handling such a crisis, is that you should never give the impression, that your profits are more important to you, than the health of your customers.

That was the real killer in the Toyota case -- not the government witch hunt that followed. To make the witch hunt possible, Toyota had to lay themselves open to attack first.

I don't think that another carmaker will make the same mistake again. They're all watching now very closely, you can rely on that. I know for example, that VW is already checking internally, how to prevent such a disaster in the future, considering their own plans of growth.

Nobody's gloating, saying it could never happen to them.
 
Last edited:
Well, while I won't exclude the possibility of that, I'm quite convinced that the handling of the problem would be a lot better, faster, customer-friendlier and most importantly sustainable.

I would not be so sanguine. Mercedes' reputation in the US over the last decade has taken some pretty big hits over things they should have recalled and didn't, or just plain handled poorly. The ML quality debacle comes to mind, for example.

The problems with the Toyota recalls obviously lie within the way the company is lead and the Japanese mentality, which somehow seems to rule out failure or rather admitting it, when it becomes obvious.

Many German and, for that matter, European industries are much the same, from my point of view. Glock, I'm looking at you - when are you going to admit that your goddamn .40 cal pistols explode at random intervals for no apparent reason other than you chose the wrong alloy for the barrels? Also, Jaguar - still waiting for that timing chain and Nikasil recall. And, oh, yes, mustn't forget BMW - when the hell are you going to recall the motorcycles that you're still cranking outfor the exploding rear ends/final drives?

There are also plenty of examples of Japanese businesses stepping up to the plate and admitting that something is wrong, then taking responsibility. One good example: Nissan realized in the early 90s that one of their suppliers had provided defective fuel injection hose which had been fitted to their V6 engines. Now, few of them leaked while in warranty and most were outside the normal period in which you should change the hoses anyway - but Nissan went ahead and recalled all the 84-89 VG30 engined vehicles anyway. Every. Single. One. Millions of them. Even though (IIRC) NHTSA said that the problem wasn't statistically significant and they didn't have to recall them, they did so anyway.

This isn't a European thing, or an American thing or a Japanese thing. It's a corporate thing. Corporations that are badly run and in possession of a case of UCSS often do this sort of stupid shit. Where the company is based or where it was founded has nothing to do with this kind of behavior.


There is no way to prevent future recalls or technical problems. I even say that there will be fatalities again because of such things. Cars are a much too complex construct to rule that out. And most people understand that.

It's just a matter of how the problem is handled by the carmaker.

On this I would agree with you, how it is handled makes all the difference.
 
Last edited:
Toyota Webcast Hopes To Disprove Critic David Gilbert, Who Blames Electronics For Acceleration
The automaker will host a Webcast event Monday at 1 p.m. EST during which it will seek to debunk a critic who claims faulty gas pedals did not cause the sudden acceleration.

Toyota will aim to duplicate the scenario created by David W. Gilbert, a professor at Southern Illinois University Carbondale.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/toyota-webcast-hopes-to-d_n_489708.html
 
What annoys me the most is that Toyota continues to "refute" any electronic cause for unintended acceleration ... while they haven't even examined it as a possible cause.
 
^Toyota issue might be the wake up call these companies need though.

One can hope, but past examples that were just as bad haven't seem to have helped. If anything, it makes that particular type of person or company cover up/deny/obfuscate more.

What annoys me the most is that Toyota continues to "refute" any electronic cause for unintended acceleration ... while they haven't even examined it as a possible cause.

That is institutional arrogance speaking. Toyota's never, ever, ever had to deal with widespread large-scale electronics failure and they have come to believe that they are masters of electronics who can do no wrong. This is the same institutional arrogance that GM had, when confronted with almost equally bad electronics failures during the 70s and 80s and 90s... and, well, you get the picture.

So, Toyota has UCSS - and perhaps GM Syndrome.
 
[YOUTUBE]3Qx5abI9IqU[/YOUTUBE]
MY TOYOTA
Corrigan Brothers (Gerard Brian and Donncha Corrigan and Peter Creighton)

Oh my little pretty car
My pretty car
Super little green machine
Glad I own ya

But you started actin strange
Actin strange
When I use my breaks
I can't hold ya

Never Gonna Stop
Wish you'd stop
Wish you'd really stop
When you gonna stop for me

My my my Toyota

Red lights really scare me now
Scare me now
Never sure if I will stop
My motor

I just hope for green
Hope for green
So far I've been lucky
Way to go yah

Never Gonna Stop
Wish you'd stop
Wish you'd really stop
When you conna stop for me

My my my Toyota

Oh my little pretty car
My pretty car
Super little green machine
Glad I own ya

But you started actin strange
Actin strange
When I use my breaks
I can't hold ya

Never Gonna Stop
Wish you'd stop
Wish you'd really stop
When you gonna stop for me
My my my Toyota
I imagine that this is running through the minds of Toyota execs right about now:

https://pic.armedcats.net/b/bl/blind_io/2010/03/08/490_3.jpg
"This will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it"

Out of control, you know, much like a Toyota.

EDIT:

ABC faked at least part of their runaway Toyota story. Sound familiar?

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/...autoblog+(Autoblog)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Late last month we wrote a lengthy post about problems with an ABC News report that purported to show a Toyota Avalon racing out of control without setting a diagnostic fault code. While we primarily focused on the technical side and analyzed whether the problem was realistic, the crew at Gawker took a hard look at the video in question and noticed something fishy.

It appears that an editor or producer at ABC felt they could pull a fast one on the audience and used some B-roll in the report showing the tachometer needle sweeping rapidly from near idle to over 6,000 rpm. That clip was injected at the precise moment when David Gilbert triggered his simulated sudden acceleration. As you can see from the screen cap above, the shot of the tachometer clearly shows the warning lights for the parking brake on, the doors open and the transmission indicator in park.
The camera operator shot this segment separately so it could be used to illustrate a point in the report, and ABC claims that getting a steady shot during the test would've been both difficult and dangerous.

The B-roll shot doesn't indicate anything conclusive one way or the other about the validity of the test and certainly doesn't stand as proof of anything being rigged. However, the lack of transparency by ABC and Mr. Gilbert regarding the specific procedure doesn't add to the credibility of either the claims or the report, and the lack of clarity by Toyota in its response to Gilbert's assertions doesn't do the automaker any favors, either.
 
Last edited:
EDIT:

ABC faked at least part of their runaway Toyota story. Sound familiar?

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/...autoblog+(Autoblog)&utm_content=Google+Reader

You expected honesty and impartiality from the American mass media? :lmao:

They have faked part or all every single one of the past ten 'recreations' of 'vehicle crises', then forgotten to disclaim it. Every. Single. One. Just for ratings and because they couldn't recreate the problem for their cameras.

Remember, the American mass media are the people that brought us 'Fake But Accurate.'
 
Last edited:
No, I never assumed they were being honest in their reporting, I'm just sharing the information I found.
 
While I still suspect SOMETHING is wrong with Toyota electronics, David Gilbert's theory went out the window. When his piece first aired, I was a bit curious what, physically, could cause the sort of short that was required to get what he got. Just a drop of water in the wrong place? Plugging in two cords from opposite ends of the car?

The answer is so complex that it probably could never happen without someone deliberately hooking stuff up to achieve the intended result.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/toyota-hits-back-at-david-gilberts-no-fault-code-demonstratio/

My problem is this: the media, and many people, won't distinguish between "Toyota proved that David Gilbert's theory is wrong" and "Toyota proved that nothing is wrong with the electronics." The former is true, but the latter is false.
 
That is institutional arrogance speaking.
Indeed, Toyoda thought (probably still thinks) that his shit doesn't stink. He was really caught off guard when the Japanese media went after him for his inadequate apology and painful bow when this first surfaced. He also saw no need to come in front of the US Congress and explain why his products had killed a few dozen US citizens. As a past Toyota owner (old POS Toyotas, but still :p) and a consumer in general, I find arrogance like that extremely offensive.


My problem is this: the media, and many people, won't distinguish between "Toyota proved that David Gilbert's theory is wrong" and "Toyota proved that nothing is wrong with the electronics." The former is true, but the latter is false.
Toyota hasn't proved anything. Like Autoblog said, all Gilbert proved is that you (by creating situations that are supposedly impossible irl) can cause unintended acceleration. They just keep saying there's not an electrical problem. This sensationalized crap on ABC is just that, crap, but people will eat it up just the same. That's been proven time and again.
 
Last edited:
^Toyota issue might be the wake up call these companies need though.


A company that admits it has done wrong when peeps have died will nearly kill the company finacially (recalls and lawsuits) and the public veiw of it. That is why they are doing it this way, which will have just as bad an effect on the public view. So they have and are screwing themselves. If they were proactive when the reports started coming in (years ago), they could of fixed the problem and made themselves look like Gods of the automitive world.
 
Toyota hasn't proved anything. Like Autoblog said, all Gilbert proved is that you (by creating situations that are supposedly impossible irl) can cause unintended acceleration. They just keep saying there's not an electrical problem. This sensationalized crap on ABC is just that, crap, but people will eat it up just the same. That's been proven time and again.

Gilbert's theory may be wrong, but Toyota can't explain why an error code doesn't show up when there is a crazy error like Gilbert created. How many other 'non real world errors' does the sloppy code in the system accept?

ABC can get away with that report for the same reason, Toyota can't explain away the non flagging of error codes.

This Toyota management team has plenty of potential. Just look at how much money they blew in F1, and couldn't win a race.
 
I haven't seen this yet and someone else will have to look at it since I am on my phone but apprently Steve Martin ragged on Toyota at the oscars. While my wife was watching that horrible new show The Marriage Ref, which is barely tolerable because the delectable Tina Fey is on it, Jerry Seinfeld ragged on Toyota too.
 
This just in from San Diego News Network:

Runaway Toyota Prius stopped on I-8 by CHP patrol car
By Staff, SDNN
Monday, March 8, 2010

A Toyota Prius, which was apparently speeding out of control due to a stuck accelerator, had to be slowed and stopped by a California Highway Patrol vehicle Monday, according to a CHP officer spokersperson.

James Sikes, 61, was heading east in the hybrid-electric sedan on I-8 in the Lakeside area about 1:30 p.m. when he noticed that the vehicle seemed to be accelerating on its own, according to the California Highway Patrol.

Sikes tried in vain to slow down, then made a 911 call after the Prius reached speeds over 90 mph, CHP public affairs Officer Brian Pennings said.

Highway Patrol personnel caught up with the blue car near Kitchen Creek Road, and one officer pulled up alongside and used his loudspeaker to talk Sikes through the process of slowing down by using his emergency brake and then turning off the engine.

The officer pulled in front of the car as it decelerated and rolled to a stop and put the rear bumper of the squad car against the front end of the
Prius.

?The vehicles did not touch until after they came to a stop,? Pennings said.

Radio traffic indicated the driver was unable to turn off the engine or shift the car into neutral.

The CHP considered using a spike strip to help slow the car, but was concerned it would cause the driver to lose control and crash. The car was finally stopped successfully near Descanso without injury.

U.S. transport regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by sudden, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars.

Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. said Thursday it was following up information from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that Toyota drivers have experienced unintended acceleration even after receiving the repair involved in the accelerator pedal recall.

The NHTSA has received more than 60 complaints from Toyota drivers who say their cars have sped up by themselves after being fixed to correct the problem. Toyota said most of these reports have yet to be verified but it is committed to investigating them.

An executive vice president, Takeshi Uchiyamada, said the Toyota brand was in ?a serious crisis,? acknowledging the company must improve monitoring of consumer complaints and respond more quickly during crises.

Toyota has been widely criticized, especially in the U.S., where most of the recalls have happened, as slow and unresponsive, and doubts are growing it may not be transparent or forthright about defects.

?The path to regaining trust remains tremendously difficult,? Uchiyamada said. ?But I would like to work with all of you.?

Toyota?s recalls have received widespread media attention in Japan, but loyalty to the company remains relatively strong.

The only models being recalled in Japan are hybrids, including the popular Prius, the nation?s top-selling car for 10 straight months, which is being repaired for an anti-lock braking glitch.

But Toyoda has repeatedly said the company?s rapid growth abroad may have gotten in the way of maintaining the highest standards of quality control.

Tearful and his voice catching with emotion, Toyoda thanked workers for their support and promised that Toyota would rise again if the ranks stood together.

?I thought I was protecting everyone, but I realized I had merely been protected by everyone,? he said.

Mitsuru Kawai, 62, a plant worker for more than 40 years, said Toyota will pull through the crisis, although he has never seen anything quite like it before.

?We went through the oil shock, the burst of the ?bubble? economy, and we?ve had recalls. But we?ve gone through all those hardships,? he said. ?Overcoming all that has helped make Japan stronger, and I am going to keep working.?

Image from link:
Runaway-Prius-cropped.jpg

California Highway Patrol officers say their patrol car acted as a brake for a Toyota Prius with a stuck accelerator Monday. (Courtesy San Diego 6 CW)
 
The accelerator was probably stuck for 15 minutes before he noticed.

And 90 mph? Pffft! That's just the normal speed of the passing lane in parts of California.
 
Top