McLaren espionage hearing

Not that I'm usually one to quote myself but I wrote this a couple of days ago stating my point about how much information can be gleened from observation:

Just for the record from an engineering point of view these are what I believe you can work out about another car from pretty simple engineering principals:

Revs - Simple equation can work this out from sound. Hell....you can even download a piece of software that's accurat to 1rpm here!

Gear ratios - Analyse the revs and some video. The FIA provide speed readings on their coverage. Know which gear you're in and, you know what gear ratios they're running!

Tyre Pressure - We know they all run the same tyres. Analyse some video and if you know the speed (ie speed traps or rpm/gear ratio) you can work out tyre pressures from the sidewall deflection. This doesn't even require maths. You could test the tyres yourself and create speed/deflecion curves.

Wing Angle - Simple enough!

Power - Wing angle vs top speed. For even more detail, a simple computer model can work this out. Everyone knows the external dimensions. Calculate drag using a CFD program and hey presto, power to some huge degree of accuracy.

Weight distribution - As described above

Fuel load - They all have to use the same fuel rigs. Unless you take the fuel filters out of it like certain teams, you know the flow rate....time how long it's connected....fuel load accurate to a lap.

Brakes - Designs can be analysed from photos. Teams don't like it, but pictures get taken by the press. It's not exactly hard for the teams to get hold of this.

Now I quote the WMSC transcript:

WMSC said:
Nigel TOZZI: So, you scrutinised onboard camera footage?

Patrick LOWE: That is right; I explained this last time.

Nigel TOZZI: You even go to the extent, when cars are lifted on cranes, of performing image analysis to determine the car's weight distribution, do you not?

Patrick LOWE: We have, on occasion. Actually, we have not done that for a while.

Nigel TOZZI: Before a race, your engineers analyse the difference in lap time between the third and fourth qualifying lap of every driver in order to predict pitting strategy, don't you?

Patrick LOWE: That is correct.

Nigel TOZZI: Thus, when you say that the dossier of so little use, this must be put in the context of an operation that spends millions of dollars constantly and legitimately spying on competitors' cars. Yet, you say that if you were to receive the dossier, it would be of little use. Is that your evidence, Mr Lowe?

Patrick LOWE: It is a question of relative value. On aerodynamics, for instance, there is a lot of interest. But in most cases, if not in all, the data actually proves to be of no value.

It seems to me that Ferrari have got McLaren in a corner. Without explicitly going through every aspect of the McLarens design and how they came to that conclusion it's impossible for them to prove it didn't come from Ferrari. Unless Paddy Lowe came to the table with all their engineering justification, then it would be clear that the ideas came through their own conclusions and research. Doing so though would then give Ferrari all the McLaren designs!

As I also think I stated, because this data is so readily available it's largely uselss. It's interesting yes, but is almost completely irrelivant since the cars are totally different! The CG of the Ferrari may be interesting to know, but it works only on the Ferrari since it's Aerodynamic balance is totally different!
 
Text transcripts released

As the transcripts of the McLaren ?spygate? hearing are published, The Gravel Trap has been handed details of a mysterious and frankly worrying text message conversation that took place in the Spa paddock on Saturday morning.

It is not certain who the two parties are, though we are led to believe that they are a young test driver from one of the top four teams and a Formula Unas girl.

We have sent the full transcript to experts to be analysed, but we are able to give you an exclusive extract from the next bombshell to rock F1:

TD: FanC a d8 rftr qual?
FUG: OMG! Natch!
TD: GR8 ? cul8r ? 7ok?
FUG: dnt b L8 x ;- )
TD: Gotta go ? PRW!

Our paddock source told us: ?We have absolutely no idea what is being said here, but it is obviously in some clever form of code and when we find out what they are on about, the book will be thrown at the culprits. Probably.?

Source
 
Hehe very amusing. I started wading through the transcript this morning. Will try and finish it tomorrow. Takes a fair while though.
 
theespionage.jpg
 
lol, how much time did you spend making that?
 
I found this an interesting read. Good to see someone else who sees the inconsitancies in the FIAs decision making over the years:

Andrew Benson - BBC said:
It was the second time in seven hours that McLaren boss Ron Dennis had tried to explain to the Formula One media why his team had done nothing wrong in the sport's spy scandal, but he still found time for a joke.

Speaking at McLaren's regular Saturday afternoon "Meet the team" session, he said it should be renamed "Beat the team".

Dennis has been adamant throughout the two months of this scandal that McLaren had not been "infected" by the confidential Ferrari information found at the home of their chief designer Mike Coughlan.

His problem following the decision to exclude the team from the constructors' championship and fine them ?49.2m was that it did not look that way.

The full verdict released by governing body the FIA last Friday looked quite incriminating - particularly to the eyes of those not hugely familiar with the workings of F1.

The way it was presented in the FIA's news release, the exchange of e-mails and text messages between Coughlan, McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa, and world champion Fernando Alonso did not look good.

Arguably the most damning section was De la Rosa asking Coughlan if he knew the weight distribution of the Ferrari because he wanted to test it in McLaren's simulator.

Dennis has always maintained that no other senior personnel at McLaren knew about the Ferrari information.

But, in the context of the FIA document, that looked like a difficult position to sustain.

So I asked Dennis how a driver could test a new weight distribution in the simulator without a) discussing the fact he was doing it with his engineers; and b) telling them why.

It was a rhetorical question, as Dennis well understood. He simply said: "Read the full transcript, and make up your own mind."

But now I have. And I cannot get away from the thought that McLaren have been the victims of an injustice.

As is often the case, the devil is in the detail.

Left out of the initial FIA release were the explanations provided by various McLaren personnel for their actions. And that is where things start to get less clear-cut.

Yes, De la Rosa said, he had asked Coughlan about the Ferrari's weight distribution, and he knew the information was coming from Ferrari performance director Nigel Stepney.

But he absolutely did not know about the Ferrari documents. He asked Coughlan because they were friends, dating back to the days when De la Rosa drove for Arrows and Coughlan was their designer.

Finding out as much as possible about rival teams is an every day occurrence in F1. Drivers constantly talk about what other teams are doing - including with members, and drivers, of those teams. And this was no more than that.

And when he discovered the weight distribution was completely different from McLaren's, he realised testing it would be pointless.

Not only that, De la Rosa said, but the e-mails provided to the FIA were his only communications on this subject.

Equally, McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe spent a great deal of time explaining how he had traced back what he called "the DNA" of every single McLaren development since before the first contact between Coughlan and Stepney, and was absolutely sure they were all original ideas.

McLaren also employed an independent computer firm to trawl back through their electronic records, and it could find no evidence incriminating them either.

And 140 McLaren engineers signed a letter to say they were sure no Ferrari ideas were on their car.

Ferrari's legal counsel Nigel Tozzi did an impressive job trying to draw inferences and generate suspicion about what McLaren might have been up to.

But, reading the transcript, you keep coming back to the words of McLaren counsel Ian Mill. There was no evidence of McLaren using the confidential Ferrari technical information. The only actual evidence - as opposed to suspicion - is that they did not.

The members of the world motorsport council clearly did not believe everything the McLaren witnesses said. They concluded that "some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms".

But even that verdict, like much of Ferrari's argument against McLaren, contained supposition.

I do not know Lowe, so I cannot vouch for him. But I know De la Rosa extremely well. He won the first race I covered as a motorsport journalist, back in 1992, and our paths have crossed consistently ever since.

He is one of the most honest men you will find in motor racing, or anywhere else.

In evidence that runs over 14 pages of the transcript, De la Rosa provides perfectly justifiable explanations as to what was going on, and why it was not what it might look like if you saw only the words of the e-mails and text messages in isolation.

And I simply do not believe that he told the world council anything other than the whole truth.

That is not to say McLaren did nothing wrong. They probably should accept responsibility for the actions of Coughlan - he was their employee, after all.

The McLaren counsel argued that, by the same token, Ferrari should accept responsibility for the actions of Stepney. And there have been whispers in F1 that a clever lawyer could make a case against Ferrari on "entrapment".

Be that as it may, the punishment seems harsh in the extreme when weighed against the fact that there was no concrete evidence that McLaren benefited from the Ferrari information, which is what was at the centre of the case.

Equally, it is worth pointing out that when two Toyota employees were convicted and sent to jail for stealing Ferrari technical information, the FIA did not get involved, despite the obvious similarity between the 2002 Ferrari and 2003 Toyota.

So why get involved this time? It is this sort of inconsistency that infuriates F1 teams.

The verdict after McLaren's first appearance before the world council on the spying charge was that there was insufficient evidence they had gained any advantage from Coughlan having the Ferrari documents.

They were not punished, but were warned that they faced a ban if any proof emerged in the future that they had gained an advantage from the data.

But the much vaunted "new evidence" provided by De la Rosa's e-mails and texts did not provide a smoking gun. And it is difficult to see on the face of it what had changed.

The first verdict could - and arguably should - have stood at the second world council hearing last week.

With the deadline for an appeal approaching, McLaren announced that they would not challenge the decision. The feeling was that McLaren wanted to put the whole affair behind them and did not want to risk a greater punishment, not that they believed justice had been done.

McLaren have talked about feeling that they have been subjected to a witch hunt. Whether that is true or not is difficult to say.

But it is hard to escape the feeling that, on the evidence, the FIA may have got this one wrong.

Source
 
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What I like is that McLaren have copied things from Ferrari (or so we are lead to believe) and they have still built a better car than Ferrari.
 
^^Yeah, that's the thing. It still proves that they are the better engineers...
 
Ahh well, McLaren wont be appealing so I guess they just want to move on. Part of me wishes they did appeal because I'm sure that they have an opportunity to redress the injustice of the punishment handed down, but I'm also glad the case is closed and we can move on.
 
good article, addresses a lot of the issues I thought about. I.E Yes no doubt McLaren did something wrong, but I wasn't convinced in criminal terms (beyond reasonable doubt) that Ferrari proved the charges McLaren was being convicted of.

Another point I don't understand is how Ferrari have escaped unpunished. It has come out during this that it is pretty much a certain they won in Melbourne with an illegal car (the moveable floor). Toyota got banned from the WRC for a season for 100% EXACTLY the same thing. Manafacturing a part that passed scrutineering tolerances yet provided an illegal advantage under race conditions.
 
Ferrari is the FIA's love child. Nothing happens to its love child.
 
Hast anyone got the original transcripts of the FIA? Apparently they simply marked the confidential text in black, so if printed it wouldn't show up, but copying to word reveals everything.... :lol: The FIA is useless, I wonder if McLaren is going to sue for this :D
 
Ferrari has put out the following press statement.

"Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro won the 2007 Formula 1 Constructors? World Championship, taking its tally in this competition to 15, seven of them in the last nine years. Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has actually chosen not to appeal against the decision of the FIA World Council taken on 13th September last, thus accepting the sentence handed out for violation of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. Ferrari will now invest all its efforts over the final three races of this championship in trying to also win the Drivers? world title."

Source

WANKERS!! CHEATS!! LOSERS!!

Anyone else car to add to that?
 
Well I wouldnt call them cheaters, but this title is not really worth much.
 
They won it fair. Cheaters must be punished. Maybe it's not worth much after all that "spy" fuzz, but it's 100mil $ advantage over Mclaren in 08.
 
Hast anyone got the original transcripts of the FIA? Apparently they simply marked the confidential text in black, so if printed it wouldn't show up, but copying to word reveals everything.... :lol: The FIA is useless, I wonder if McLaren is going to sue for this :D

It's not written over in black. It's written over in white. I haven't tried reading the deleted text, but I'm pretty sure it can't be done. They left space where the deleted text was.

So the sentence:

"Ferrari are a bunch of gay faces who pay Kimi Raikonnen 50,000,000 USD." would become

"Ferrari are a bunch of gay faces who pay Kimi Raikonnen "

They deleted stuff like people's salaries and the name of their break balance system.
 
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