General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

No, but 88 is.

My point is that the sort of accident where a driver suddenly accelerates into something from low speed is very common, even more so among the elderly. You could make a list like that for EVERY car manufacturer.
 
There's also a preponderance of Toyota buying off claimants off all sorts before they get to trial, to avoid critical safety documents from coming to light. That is, if you believe the former attorney.

I'm not sure I'm with the reporting of every single Toyota driver having a crash, but (IMO) Toyota is hiding something. They've not been forthcoming in their words and deeds. I really want the truth.
 
Weird. So young people die less in Toyotas, but old people more? Am I reading that right? That chart is confusing.
 
thevictor390 said:
Weird. So young people die less in Toyotas, but old people more? Am I reading that right? That chart is confusing.
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I think your reading it right. It would make sense and wouldn't suprise me if other automakers charts looked similar. The bland driving dynamics and overly cushy ride of most Toyota/Lexus models probably increases the appeal to the older generations.


I still think that this whole unintended acceleration thing needs to be looked into a bit closer still, but sadly, people like Sykes (sp?) who lie about SUA to get attention don't help at all. They make the general public more skeptical and more insistent that ALL Toyota SUA cases are the result of human error/looking to make a buck/damage a car that they've fallen behind on in terms of payments. Toyota can, and has, twisted the conversation in many minds to this end- that there are now people just "out to get Toyota," which is likely true, and sad because Toyota has proven they can make a good product, they've just caught the "gotta grow quick" bug and let quality slide.

This diverts the attention from where it should lie: determining the root cause of the unintended acceleration issues, esp. when people are reporting with witnesses that are in the car that it is still occurring. The woman with her son in the parking lot who noticed it in her Matrix (and her son questioned her about it) after she got the recall fix. She didn't wreck her car, and doubt she'd intentionally try and wreck her car with her kid inside. Same with the grandma in the Prius who backed out of her driveway into a stone wall. I doubt she'd purposely wreck her car with her grandchild in the backseat.

Granted some of these could be from driver error (the grandmother's story could potentially be like that, just given her age) but there are others who've experienced it who probably didn't.
 
America, You Brought The Toyota Hoax On Yourself

http://jalopnik.com/5493693/america-you-brought-the-toyota-hoax-on-yourself
No matter how the Great Toyota Recall and Jim Sikes saga end, two things are certain: One, American drivers are sheep, and two, yes, this will happen again.

So: Jim Sikes perpetrated a hoax, the media is confused and salacious, the demonization of Toyota is no longer so cut and dried, and the automobile as we know it is caught in the crossfire. Faced with all this, we have but one question: Why did no one see it coming?

Unintended acceleration is nothing new. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration receives countless complaints on the subject every year, and no make of car or driver demographic is left unscathed.

The volume and frequency of these complaints seem to ebb and flow with the cultural tide. Media coverage, statistical ignorance, and opportunism appear to have more to do with the recurrence of reported UA than anything else. And the patterns ? Brian Ross and ABC reviving the 60 Minutes Audi hoax, a hefty swing in UA complaint sources toward older drivers (see our chart) ? seem to have more to do with mass psychology and opportunism than technical problems.

500x_audi_5000.jpg


Still, it's not all the media's fault. We are a nation that knows less and less about the cars that we drive, we spend more time on the road indulging our selfish whims, and we have allowed ? nay, begged ? Beige Bites Back to happen. Consider the following: In 1988, NHTSA concluded that the majority of the documented Audi acceleration incidents were caused by driver error. Shift interlock devices were developed to prevent accidental forward motion, and UA claims dropped off sharply in the years that followed. Did the about-face ? 60 Minutes was wrong! Audi doesn't have it in for us! ? change the country's relationship with the automobile? No. We moved on, we forgot, and we dug our own graves.

500x_audi_twitter.jpg


Those who do not learn from history, as the saying goes, are doomed to repeat it. And if the Toyota unintended acceleration incident isn't repeated history ? or at least repeated knee-jerk paranoia ? then I don't know what is.

The problem lies partly with feature bloat, and with our unwillingness to stop it. In the pursuit of a safer, more comfortable, and more effortless driving experience, we have added staggering complexity to a machine that was complex from the get-go. We piss and moan as cars grow heavier and more elaborate ? even the fuel-conscious lobbies take issue with this, as it runs contrary to efficiency ? but few of us vote with our wallets. The American dream dictates that our desires are nothing if not attainable, and we have been trained to never turn down a larger portion.

500x_toyota_dealer_mpg.jpg


On a certain level, the tradeoff is understandable. Who in Anytown, USA would give up a quieter ride and the coddling comfort of a rolling living room for a semblance of awareness-promoting steering feel or driver involvment? Which is easier to sell: a machine that exudes sensible restraint, or a car aimed at catering to your every whim? In other words, in a world where money is the only thing that separates you from work, why should one of the richest nations on the planet bother with the effort of driving its own cars?

At the same time ? and though this is a tired refrain, it remains relevant ? we are becoming a nation of dullards. We lack the training to drive even our dumbed-down, increasingly nannified vehicles. Less than ten percent of Americans know how to operate a manual transmission, and while you could argue that such a statistic is merely a sign of changing times (who among us knows how to ride a horse or drive a car with manual spark advance?), it's indicative of a larger issue. States continue to cut back on driver education in schools, citing statistics that point to the decreasing relevance of behind-the-wheel training. (Do we revamp the training to make it worth a damn? No. Of course not. We cut it altogether.) What happened to shop class? How many schools have project cars? You could argue that these concerns are moot in the No User-Serviceable Parts Inside era, but that ignores the countless teenagers building homespun fuel-injection systems or Linux-powered vehicle brains in their parents' garages.

500x_toyota_service_prius.jpg


At heart, we are a short-sighted culture. When times are good, we kid ourselves into believing that companies like Toyota are looking out for the common good ? How could they not? Their cars are reliable and efficient! Prius ads have trees in them! ? rather than simply reading the needs of a market better than anyone else. When times are bad, we point fingers at a million culprits and cry out for blood. We have a fear of perspective and careful analysis, and we fool ourselves into thinking that there is such a thing as an electronically managed free ride.

In retrospect, our constant need for cultural grist has not helped us. We are media enablers; we eat up congressional feeds on CNBC and snap analysis from uninformed TV pundits. Yes, Toyota has initiated a couple of recalls, but does that explain the increased reports of unintended acceleration since the announcement? No.

Sheep. We want the beige so we can zone out or text or read the newspaper or listen to talk radio in our cocoon-like cars. We want to make it home in time to watch our corporate-owned cable news and eat our corn syrup-infused food and watch our mindless reality TV and get up to do it again tomorrow morning. We are the problem. Beige bites back? Ha. Unless we do something to stop it, it's going to get a whole lot worse.
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nist7 said:
America, You Brought The Toyota Hoax On Yourself

http://jalopnik.com/5493693/america-you-brought-the-toyota-hoax-on-yourself
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Good article but I don't necessarily agree with conclusions. Its not just Americans who are like that it's all people. It also completely ignores the fact that when you get down to it cars are a means of transport nothing more. There are more unskilled drivers on the road simply because there are more drivers on the road, when cars were more scarce and expensive cars were bought by enthusiasts and people who required cars for business. The two groups will of course care a lot more about how the vehicle works and learn to operate it better. Other people have other priorities.

I could make that same argument for computers, vast majority of people can't operate one properly, even though even 10 years ago most people who used them were quite adept. It's not that people are dumber it's that number of non-enthusiasts/professionals is larger.

As far as media enabling goes - it's normal, it is impossible to know everything so you have to rely on third party sources for information. For a vast majority of people corporate news networks are still reputable. It is different for younger generation, which relies more on "cloud reporting" (forums, twitter, facebook, etc...) but it is also demographic with much less buying power.
 
Cosmic rays offered as acceleration cause

Electronics makers have known for decades about "single event upsets," computer errors from radiation created when cosmic rays strike the atmosphere.

With more than 3,000 complaints to U.S. regulators of random sudden acceleration problems in Toyota models, several researchers say single event upsets deserve a close look.

The phenomenon can trigger software crashes that come and go without a trace. Unlike interference from radio waves, there's no way to physically block particles; such errors typically have to be prevented by a combination of software and hardware design.

And an anonymous tipster told NHTSA last month that "the automotive industry has yet to truly anticipate SEUs."

Such radiation "occurs virtually anywhere," said William Price, who spent 20 years at the Jet Propulsion Lab testing for radiation effects on electronics. "It doesn't happen in a certain locale like you would expect in an electromagnetic problem from a radio tower or something else."

Toyota staunchly defends its electronics, saying they were designed for "absolute reliability." Responding to the Free Press, Toyota said its systems "are not the same as typical consumer electronics. The durability, size, susceptibility and specifications of the automotive electronics make them robust against this type of interference."

Testing for the problem would involve putting vehicles in front of a particle accelerator and showering them with radiation, a step that experts said would help resolve the question.

"Nobody wants to come out and say we have issues and we need to test," said Sung Chung, president of the testing firm Eigenix.

The phenomenon was first noted in the 1950s affecting electronics at high altitudes; unlike electromagnetic waves, there are no ways to physically shield circuits from such particles. Airplane and spacecraft makers have long designed their electronics with such radiation in mind, through safeguards such as systems that triple-check data.

Only in the late 1970s did researchers discover that a minuscule portion of such radiation falls to earth. It's not enough to harm humans, but as circuits in computers and cell phones on the ground have shrunk to the width of several dozen atoms, the risk of errors has grown. "Five years ago, it was a problem in very few applications," said Olivier Lauzeral, general manager of IRoC Technologies, which tests chips and software for SEU resistance. "In the past couple of years, we've seen a rise in demand and interest."

In an anonymous e-mail last month to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a tipster said such an error "may be one reasonable explanation for incidents of sudden acceleration," adding that the automotive industry had yet to adapt the techniques used by aircraft firms to prevent problems from SEUs.

NHTSA added the tipster's information to its electronic investigative file on Toyota recalls. The agency declined several requests from the Free Press for comment.

Electronic throttle controls like the ones under scrutiny in Toyotas are widespread in the industry. They're more reliable than mechanical links, they save weight and space, and make other technology, like stability control, possible.
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http://www.freep.com/article/20100316/BUSINESS0104/3160360/1014/rss13

:lol:
 
Well now they are just grasping at straws.
 
From the Late Show, couldn't find the video:

After extensive testing, Toyota has announced that they were unable to duplicate the problem with the Prius that allegedly got up to 94 MPH on March 8. / video:
(voice-over): "After a thorough review, Toyota can now say with certainty that the recent runaway Prius incident in California was a hoax. All other reported issues with Toyotas:
  • malfunctioning pressure hoses in Camrys,
  • inconsistent braking patterns in Priuses,
  • floor mat entrapment in Camrys, Avalons, Priuses, Tacomas and Tundras, and
  • sticking accelerator pedals in Camrys, Corollas, Highlanders, RAV4s, Matrixes, Avalons, Sequoias and Tundras,
that's all us. A message from Toyota."
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http://www.ddy.com/dl5.html



Some Toyota drivers suing in US for a full refund
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/03/15/financial/f145343D63.DTL#ixzz0iIEsExtA
 
I think the best thing for Toyota to do at this point WOULD be to offer to buy back any affected vehicle at a fair depreciation rate/miles.
 
I agree, except for the "fair depreciation and miles" bit. The people who bought Toyotas did so with either an expectation of longevity of reliability or resale value - neither of which were delivered by Toyota.

One thing that wasn't mentioned:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/16/toyota-being-sued-for-full-refund-of-recalled-vehicles/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+weblogsinc%2Fautoblog+%28Autoblog%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

"When we talked with Toyota owners, they all voiced the same desire ? to drive the car back to the lot, hand them the keys and pick up a check." So says Steve Berman, a lawyer from Seattle who has filed a class action lawsuit against Toyota on behalf of "dozens" of owners in Arizona and Washington. Fat chance, right?

Not so fast, answers Berman. "Fortunately, we think the law allows for exactly that solution, and we are asking the courts to make it happen." While this isn't nearly the first class action suit filed against Toyota since revelations of the car's possible tendency to accelerate out of control, it is the first such case that seeks a full refund for each car sold.

According to The San Francisco Chronicle, most such suits are only seeking to get back around $500 per owner, or roughly the amount Kelley Blue Book believes the average Toyota has lost in resale value due to allegations the vehicles are unsafe. That would equal more than $3 billion. Berman's suit, though, could add up to many times that amount if successful.

Even if Berman's would-be class action suit fails, Toyota may be in for more rough times courtesy of the Attorneys Toyota Action Consortium (ATAC), which is adding racketeering claims to a number of its lawsuits. Northeastern University law professor Tim Howard, who is coordinating the ATAC, says, "It's become increasingly apparent that Toyota profits were not built on quality products, but on a willful pattern of deception, fraud and racketeering."

In any case, a group of federal judges in San Diego will meet in one week to determine whether the 110 or so class action suits against Toyota should be combined into one single case and whether that case should proceed to trial. We'll be watching.
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Yup, you read that right, racketeering charges.
 
I disagree, if I purchased a new car and this happened a few weeks later I would want to return the car as well.

The selling points - arguably the only selling points - of Toyota is reliability, resale and safety. It sure as hell isn't exciting driving dynamics. All of those points are gone now and consumer confidence is shaken. When the NHTSA gets on the news and tells you to park your Toyota (even if it's retracted later) it shakes the confidence of owners and buyers.

Every single selling point of Toyota is gone right now, it would be like buying a 700 bhp super car and finding a 1.7 L Civic engine under the hood.
 
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Define 'few weeks.' If it's like three, okay. If you've been driving it for multiple months, reasonable expectation is you pay for what you've used.
 
Toyota announced a HUGE Tundra recall was today.

Toyota is voluntarily recalling two (that's right, two) 2010 Tundra four-wheel-drive pickups to fix a potential problem with the front propeller shaft, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

The issue: A crack can develop in one of the joints that may lead to the driveshaft separating and falling away from the truck, causing the vehicle to lose control.

If this sounds familiar, it's because it's virtually identical to an earlier recall affecting the 2010 Toyota Tacoma.

Toyota discovered the prop shaft issue while dyno testing an affected Tundra at the Texas plant where the trucks are built. An investigation traced the problem to prop shaft supplier Dana Corp., which found that improper part placement in welder tooling could result in a bad weld that would lead to the problem.

Dana concluded that all potentially suspect parts were produced on Oct. 20 and 21.

About 500 Tundras have already been fixed at the factory. Two pickups containing potentially suspect parts were delivered to Toyota dealers and sold.

Owners ? both of you ? may contact the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 800-331-4331 or call NHTSA's hot line at 888-327-4236 for additional assistance. Dealers will replace the front propeller shaft for free.
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