McLaren espionage hearing

HondaF1 said:
TomCat, The fine goes into the FIA's safety programs.
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:lol: Yeah, you go on believing that.

I'm sure it'll end up in the special FIA Ferrari Title Saftey Program.


georgestr said:
Total profit loss, yes. Considering they have 500-600million a year in revenue though, I doubt it's going to make a huge impact.
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If you lost 20% of your income, I'm sure you would feel it.
 
Some interesting articles...

Some interesting articles...

Mosley: Penalty may have been too light

Saturday, 15, September, 2007, 14:30

FIA president Max Mosley has rejected suggestions that the penalty handed to McLaren over the ?spygate? affair was excessively harsh or disproportionate.

Indeed, Mosley believes that posterity may judge that the World Motor Sport Council was too lenient in stripping the team of its 2007 constructors? points and imposing the largest fine in sporting history.

Mosley said the scale of the fine needed to be seen in the light of McLaren's annual $450-500 million turnover.

?That hundred million dollars is less than the difference between his budget and that of Frank Williams or Renault and several other teams," he said.

?So it?s a very minor punishment as such.

?Half of it roughly will go to the other teams, the other half we?re going ? if the World Council agree ? to distribute to our ASNs worldwide to bring on young drivers.

?Anything less than that would have no effect at all."

?All you?re doing is bringing his budget down to the level of some of the other top teams in the paddock," he added.

?It?s absurd to say that it?s unfair or disproportionate or anything like that.

?Anybody, just looking at market value, who was presented in April with that 780 pages and running a top team, would have been very happy to pay 100 million dollars to have it ? never mind the 300 communications that went backwards and forwards.?

Mosley added that McLaren should consider itself lucky not to have been barred from the remainder of 2007 and the 2008 season as well.

?It?s actually a very modest penalty indeed,? he said.

?They were extremely lucky that we didn?t quite simply say, ?You have polluted the championship in 2007, you?ve probably polluted it in 2008 because we?ve no way of knowing what information you?re using for what in your 2007/2008 cars, so you?d better stay out of the championship until 2009, if you?re still around, because that way we know it?s completely clear.?

?We didn?t do that, and I think when the history of this gets to be written, that may be what we will be reproached for: not doing too much, but doing too little.?
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Source

Max challenges Ron?s version of events

Saturday, 15, September, 2007, 14:32

FIA president Max Mosley has disputed Ron Dennis?s claim that he made the governing body aware of the new evidence that prompted it to revisit the spying case.

Speaking at Spa on Saturday, Mosley confirmed that Dennis called to tell him that Fernando Alonso had threatened to hand over damaging evidence to the FIA.

But Mosley said Dennis assured him that no emails discussing confidential Ferrari information in fact existed ? an assurance which later proved to be mistaken.

?What actually happened was not at the Nurburgring but in Hungary,? Mosley told a scrum of reporters and photographers.

?On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, ?I?ve just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he?s got information and he?s threatening to give it to the Federation.

?So I said, ?What did you say Ron?? He replied, ?I said ?go on and hand it over?.?

?I said, ?Ron, you said exactly the right thing.?

?And then Ron said, ?But there isn?t any information.?

?So I said, ?So it?s an empty threat??

?And he replied: ?Yes, a completely empty threat. There?s no information, there?s nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.??

Without making a direct accusation that Dennis lied to him, Mosley implied that he had been misled by the McLaren team principal.

?Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him," he said.

?I?ve known Ron for 40 years; it?s very difficult for me, when somebody I?ve known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, ?Max, I?m telling the truth with complete sincerity? ? you believe him.

?It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.

?You don?t get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious.

?At which point I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers, and the rest is history.?
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Source


Dennis stung by Mosley comments

Saturday, 15, September, 2007, 14:09


McLaren boss Ron Dennis says he was ?surprised? to hear FIA president Max Mosley questioning his personal integrity over the 'spygate' saga.

Dennis revealed on Friday afternoon that he went straight to the governing body once he became aware email evidence might exist that his drivers Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa knew about confidential Ferrari information.

Mosley confirmed that Dennis had called him over the Hungarian Grand Prix weekend to say that Alonso had threatened to hand over damaging evidence to the FIA.

But he claimed Dennis dismissed this as an ?empty threat? and assured him that the team had done nothing untoward ? an assurance that later proved to be mistaken.

While Mosley stopped short of accusing Dennis of lying to him, the clear implication was that he had withheld information.

?I was a little surprised by what Max said,? Dennis told ITV Sport anchorman Steve Rider.

?I am working hard to get closure on a very unpleasant experience that McLaren has had.?

Dennis insisted that he told the FIA the ?complete truth? as he understood it at the time, and that he was ?as surprised as anyone? when he discovered the emails actually existed.

?I don?t want to get into the detail but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question ? and I?ve answered some difficult questions ? at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth,? Dennis said.

?At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn?t.

?The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else ? and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA.

?I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody.

?I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point.?
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Source

McLaren not certain to appeal

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has hinted that the team may choose not to appeal against its massive fine and exclusion from the constructors' championship.

Although Dennis said no decision had yet been taken, he suggested that McLaren might prefer to draw a line under the matter after a summer of controversy.

If we do not appeal this, it will be because we want closure," Dennis was quoted as saying by Reuters.

"The other teams I hope will understand the financial penalty we will swallow in the interests of the sport.

"I don't want to drag this thing on if I can get closure.

"And closure is for Formula 1.

"It has to be complete closure."

The spying affair is also the subject of a criminal investigation in Italy, which remains ongoing.

The FIA World Motor Sport Council decided to fine McLaren $100 million and remove all its 2007 constructors' championship points after concluding that the team had benefited from the confidential Ferrari data it received.
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Source
 
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"If we do not appeal this, it will be because we want closure." - Dennis

Nice try, Ron. You can't appeal because the evidence is friggin devastating. You'll just get embarrassed again. Lying right to Mosley's face about the e-mails as well. LOL. What a circus.
 
What evidence?

?They were extremely lucky that we didn?t quite simply say, ?You have polluted the championship in 2007, you?ve probably polluted it in 2008 because we?ve no way of knowing what information you?re using for what in your 2007/2008 cars, so you?d better stay out of the championship until 2009, if you?re still around, because that way we know it?s completely clear.? - Mosley

Guilty until Proven Innocent
 
TomCat said:
:lol: Yeah, you go on believing that.

I'm sure it'll end up in the special FIA Ferrari Title Saftey Program.




If you lost 20% of your income, I'm sure you would feel it.
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OK, are you serious? You seriously think the FIA is just going to funnel that much money to Ferrari, and nobody would notice? The FIA has to produce documentation of their cash flow like any other non-profit org, and i'm sure a flag would be raised to the "100mil Gift to our friends at Ferrari".

If I lost 20% of my income, i'm sure I would notice it, but I'm not a company that makes as much money, or has the backing that McLaren does. Come up with a better comparison, and we can try again.
 
georgestr said:
OK, are you serious? You seriously think the FIA is just going to funnel that much money to Ferrari, and nobody would notice? The FIA has to produce documentation of their cash flow like any other non-profit org, and i'm sure a flag would be raised to the "100mil Gift to our friends at Ferrari".

If I lost 20% of my income, i'm sure I would notice it, but I'm not a company that makes as much money, or has the backing that McLaren does. Come up with a better comparison, and we can try again.
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I'm just joking. This whole thing is a big joke anyway.

The money is getting sent to other teams and to the "ASNs" program. Ferrari will get a piece of that pie, I'm sure.
 
georgestr said:
OK, are you serious? You seriously think the FIA is just going to funnel that much money to Ferrari, and nobody would notice? The FIA has to produce documentation of their cash flow like any other non-profit org, and i'm sure a flag would be raised to the "100mil Gift to our friends at Ferrari".

If I lost 20% of my income, i'm sure I would notice it, but I'm not a company that makes as much money, or has the backing that McLaren does. Come up with a better comparison, and we can try again.
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It's just one massive conspiracy against Dennis and everyone at the FIA has a hard-on for the red-cars. I'm sure Ecclestone can't wait to launder McL's $100m into Maranello so Todt can swim in it!

Give me a break.
 
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BBC article said:
Alonso's relationship with team boss Ron Dennis is under severe strain as a result of a bust-up on the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix. That was the day after the controversial qualifying session that led to Alonso being dumped from pole to sixth on the grid after being found guilty of deliberately blocking Hamilton.

During the argument, the reigning world champion disclosed he had email evidence in the spy scandal that could potentially prove damaging to the team. It is reported Alonso threatened to use such information unless he was granted number one driver status ahead of Hamilton.

Dennis is said to have called his bluff, telling Alonso to go ahead, at which point, it is claimed, Dennis then phoned Mosley himself, effectively handing his team in to the FIA.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm
 
We know who's engine tommorow will "suddenly" lose a will to rev...
 
Or the wing may fly off through Eau Rouge...
 
georgestr said:
Total profit loss, yes. Considering they have 500-600million a year in revenue though, I doubt it's going to make a huge impact.
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Of course it will make a huge impact. That's 100 million dollars they could have spent developing the car. In such a cut throat sport that is a huge difference and I won't be surprised if Ferrari runs away in 2008 with both the championships.

Apart from that, it will affect McLaren in long term with sponsors pulling out etc.
 
the funny thing is, if something does happen to Alonso's car, the FIA would probably investigate it as retaliation or something.

I still say put Button in the car!
 
In all likelyhood, it will be a pretty normal, if a bit tense, weekend for Alonso. I am among the people who think that Ron Dennis had no knowledge of this scandal while it happened, and I also think he is a pretty honest man who cares alot about his integrity and keeping a reputation. I don't think he'll let anyone inlcuding himself, lower down to retalitory tactics this season. Its the right thing to do, and even if you didn't care about that part, any deliberate attempt to sabotage Fernando would be a really bad move at this point.

Not that I don't think Alonso deserves it. I would have fired him on the spot if he tried to blackmail me. Definitely a whiny bastard who I'll be glad to see stuck with some other team. This scandal has tarnished him and De La Rosa as much as anyone (baring the slimeballs Coughlan and Stepney) and I think other teams will think twice before hiring either driver. It will be an interesting end of this season into the beggining of the next.

JH
 
THE REAL STIG said:
Or the wing may fly off through Eau Rouge...
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haha, while I was watching qualifying this morning, they were showing a shot of Alonso's car in the garage, and I thought to myself "wouldn't it be great if Ron Dennis just walked by and kicked the front wing off"
 
The thing that get's me more and more is the fact that actually what they've done is nothing out of the ordinary. Martin Brundel pointed out that a good majority of what the FIA are claiming McLaren used is the data that can be obtained either by observation or generally down the pit lane! You know something that one Williams engineer told me when we were with them at the test at Silverstone? He asked me when the RedBull was being lifted off the truck after its gearbox had gone "Do you know why it takes 20 mechanics to help the car off the truck?" The answer: "If the car was allowed to pivot about its rollhoop it would be possible to work out the weight balance" They have people watching how much fuel goes into the other cars. They know how much fuel weighs....hence all it takes is for the car to go off the track once and get lifted and hey presto, every team that wants it can get a pretty accurate estimate of the distribution!

Now I'm not naive enough to think that certain people in McLaren weren't aware that this information existed and had seen it. Whether they knew this was any different to the usual information they recieve I don't know. Even things like rpm can be exactly calculated. If you know rpm at a certain point and also the speed.....hey presto....there are your gear ratios! Above all though I would say it's pretty clear to see that Ron Dennis didn't know about it! Now I know some people in F1 are good at hiding their emotions, but I really don't believe Ron is that good an actor! To be clearly quite moved by the thought of his integrity being ruined and all he has worked for being thrown away whilst being called a liar is clearly very hard for him to accept!

Just for the record from an engineering point of view these are what I believe you can work out about another car from pretty simple engineering principals:

Revs - Simple equation can work this out from sound. Hell....you can even download a piece of software that's accurat to 1rpm here!

Gear ratios - Analyse the revs and some video. The FIA provide speed readings on their coverage. Know which gear you're in and, you know what gear ratios they're running!

Tyre Pressure - We know they all run the same tyres. Analyse some video and if you know the speed (ie speed traps or rpm/gear ratio) you can work out tyre pressures from the sidewall deflection. This doesn't even require maths. You could test the tyres yourself and create speed/deflecion curves.

Wing Angle - Simple enough!

Power - Wing angle vs top speed. For even more detail, a simple computer model can work this out. Everyone knows the external dimensions. Calculate drag using a CFD program and hey presto, power to some huge degree of accuracy.

Weight distribution - As described above

Fuel load - They all have to use the same fuel rigs. Unless you take the fuel filters out of it like certain teams, you know the flow rate....time how long it's connected....fuel load accurate to a lap.

Brakes - Designs can be analysed from photos. Teams don't like it, but pictures get taken by the press. It's not exactly hard for the teams to get hold of this.
 
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http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40699

The proceeds from McLaren?s record fine will be split between the team?s rivals and funding for young drivers around the world, FIA president Max Mosley has revealed.

The Woking squad was fined $100 million (?49.2 million) by the World Motor Sport Council on Thursday after it was found guilty of a serious breach of Article 151c of Formula 1?s International Sporting Code.

Mosley says that around half of the money will go to the rest of the grid and hopes the remainder will be distributed among national motorsport authorities to help fund young driver programmes.

?Roughly half of it will go to the other teams, the other half we?re going ? if the World Council agrees ? to distribute to our ASNs worldwide to bring on young drivers,? Mosley told reporters at Spa on Saturday.

Although McLaren was fined $100 million, the team will only pay that amount less the television income it would have earned had it been eligible for constructors' points.

However the financial penalty is still believed to be the largest in sporting history.
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lmao

Where is the "Select All" button on Alonso's side?
 
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